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Post by charlie30 on Jul 17, 2020 15:30:27 GMT
Hello,
I was on a Jubilee train the other morning, as we pulled into Green park, the train stopped and after a long delay we just went to the next station without the doors being opened. As far as I know the station was open and there were no alerts etc. There was also no announcement from the driver at all. The customers were very cheesed off. To add to my curiosity, at a lot of the stations, it took a long time (30 seconds plus) for the doors to be opened, compared to normal, whereas at some the doors opened as normal.
I wondered if perhaps there was a driver being trained, the train had a fault or even the train went too far into the tunnel when trying to stop, as I remember hearing somewhere that the trains are not allowed to reverse.
Would anyone know why this sort of thing might occur?
Thank you
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 17, 2020 15:41:51 GMT
The only issues in that area recently were on Monday morning around 0930 at Bond Street, which required southbound trains to work through the area (including Green Park) in protected manual mode, although nothing specific reported about Green Park station.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 17, 2020 16:02:28 GMT
Judging from what you say happened at Green Park, it could have been an ATO overrun which whilst rare does still happen where the profile used by the Vehicle On Board Computer (VOBC) fails to stop the train within the tolerances of the stopping board thus disabling the doors. In that scenario the driver would radio to get permission to continue to the next station and make a PA announcement in the case if the two times I saw this in person.
The lag you describe at other stations may have been a fault with the train or just the sometimes lethargic feedback that sometimes occurs when driving in Protected Manual. I'm leaning towards the former since the Jubilee line is normally the better of the two Thales Transmission Based Train Control lines on LU.
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Post by 1018509 on Jul 18, 2020 16:37:31 GMT
I am surprised when these sort of incidents happen that no-one operates the emergency handle. Even as en employee, when travelling to work at Leicester Square Train Technician Call Point via Metropolitan and Piccadilly Line on the occasion when the doors failed to open at Kings Cross I operated the emergency handle and stayed to explain why. If you are a passenger and you want to get off the train and the doors don't open when they should then this is an emergency as far as you are concerned - don't let the penalty notices scare you off if your complaint is genuine.
Odd coincidence this but on the occasion this happened was a few weeks before I transferred to Rayners Lane call Point and within a few weeks I had a call to an A60 with doors failing to open on one side of one car and sure enough the valve could be heard blowing when the open buttons were pressed but not lifting to open the doors. A quick change of the pair of vales soon rectified the problem. I would like to round off the story saying "yes reader it was the very same carriage that I had been on at Kings Cross" but honestly I have no idea if it was, as door valves in those days did fail not often but more often than you would imagine.
This was in the days when trains had drivers and guards and no ATO signalling to mess up. Happier days.
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Post by londonstuff on Jul 18, 2020 17:50:38 GMT
I am surprised when these sort of incidents happen that no-one operates the emergency handle. Even as en employee, when travelling to work at Leicester Square Train Technician Call Point via Metropolitan and Piccadilly Line on the occasion when the doors failed to open at Kings Cross I operated the emergency handle and stayed to explain why. If you are a passenger and you want to get off the train and the doors don't open when they should then this is an emergency as far as you are concerned - don't let the penalty notices scare you off if your complaint is genuine. Odd coincidence this but on the occasion this happened was a few weeks before I transferred to Rayners Lane call Point and within a few weeks I had a call to an A60 with doors failing to open on one side of one car and sure enough the valve could be heard blowing when the open buttons were pressed but not lifting to open the doors. A quick change of the pair of vales soon rectified the problem. I would like to round off the story saying "yes reader it was the very same carriage that I had been on at Kings Cross" but honestly I have no idea if it was, as door valves in those days did fail not often but more often than you would imagine. This was in the days when trains had drivers and guards and no ATO signalling to mess up. Happier days. As a Forum Admin I don’t want to encourage people to pull the emergency handle, especially if, as goldenarrow has suggested, a PA is made following a technical issue. Emergency implies some sort of danger not just an inconvenience to an individual - that mindset is why we have idiots phoning 999 to say their pizza delivery was cold or that their hamster has escaped. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 18, 2020 18:31:38 GMT
I am surprised when these sort of incidents happen that no-one operates the emergency handle. Even as en employee, when travelling to work at Leicester Square Train Technician Call Point via Metropolitan and Piccadilly Line on the occasion when the doors failed to open at Kings Cross I operated the emergency handle and stayed to explain why. If you are a passenger and you want to get off the train and the doors don't open when they should then this is an emergency as far as you are concerned - don't let the penalty notices scare you off if your complaint is genuine. Odd coincidence this but on the occasion this happened was a few weeks before I transferred to Rayners Lane call Point and within a few weeks I had a call to an A60 with doors failing to open on one side of one car and sure enough the valve could be heard blowing when the open buttons were pressed but not lifting to open the doors. A quick change of the pair of vales soon rectified the problem. I would like to round off the story saying "yes reader it was the very same carriage that I had been on at Kings Cross" but honestly I have no idea if it was, as door valves in those days did fail not often but more often than you would imagine. This was in the days when trains had drivers and guards and no ATO signalling to mess up. Happier days. How is it an emergency? All anyone will suffer is that they will go one stop more than intended, have to travel back to their destination and arrive a few minutes later than expected. That's a minor inconvenience, not an emergency! I will point out that if the train had overrun the platform by more than the first set of double doors (which can be cutout on 1992ts) and is going onto the next station then the driver should make a PA to explain what is happening |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 18, 2020 19:37:08 GMT
If a train behaves in a completely unexpected manner and there is no announcement it is possible that the driver has become partially incapacitated and confused which would certainly constitute an emergency. Better safe than sorry. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Jul 18, 2020 20:07:15 GMT
If that was the case, operating a Passenger Emergency Alarm (PEA) would not be of any more assistance than the OPO (One Person Operation) alarms already fitted on all trains. The PEA only activates in the cab; if the driver is incapacitated they're not going to be able to do anything about it. The OPO alarm will alert the Service Controller if the train operator has become incapacitated after a short delay. This is a system proven to work.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 19, 2020 0:02:37 GMT
If that was the case, operating a Passenger Emergency Alarm (PEA) would not be of any more assistance than the OPO (One Person Operation) alarms already fitted on all trains. The PEA only activates in the cab; if the driver is incapacitated they're not going to be able to do anything about it. The OPO alarm will alert the Service Controller if the train operator has become incapacitated after a short delay. This is a system proven to work. The OPO alarm only works on manually driven trains, not on those operating under ATO |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 19, 2020 0:05:28 GMT
If a train behaves in a completely unexpected manner and there is no announcement it is possible that the driver has become partially incapacitated and confused which would certainly constitute an emergency. Better safe than sorry. If the train stops, the doors don't open and then the train moves off then clearly the driver isn't incapacitated as they are able to start the train. And if they can't open the doors because of an overrun then stopping the train with the passenger emergency alarm isn't going to help as the only way to reset it is for the driver to walk back through the train. All that does is delay the train getting to the next station |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 19, 2020 8:35:12 GMT
If a train behaves in a completely unexpected manner and there is no announcement it is possible that the driver has become partially incapacitated and confused which would certainly constitute an emergency. Better safe than sorry. If the train stops, the doors don't open and then the train moves off then clearly the driver isn't incapacitated as they are able to start the train. And if they can't open the doors because of an overrun then stopping the train with the passenger emergency alarm isn't going to help as the only way to reset it is for the driver to walk back through the train. All that does is delay the train getting to the next station Well, you know that and a lot of LU staff know that, but those trains are full of people who have no interest in such technicalities. As far as they are concerned, once the train stops, the driver has one very simple job to do - open the doors - before the much more demanding task of driving the train. If he can't even manage a simple task like that, why should they believe he's capable of correctly driving the train - he could have become ill and disoriented? Better, surely, to ensure the train does not move but stays in the station where help can more easily be given. |
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Post by londonstuff on Jul 19, 2020 11:52:31 GMT
If the train stops, the doors don't open and then the train moves off then clearly the driver isn't incapacitated as they are able to start the train. And if they can't open the doors because of an overrun then stopping the train with the passenger emergency alarm isn't going to help as the only way to reset it is for the driver to walk back through the train. All that does is delay the train getting to the next station Well, you know that and a lot of LU staff know that, but those trains are full of people who have no interest in such technicalities. As far as they are concerned, once the train stops, the driver has one very simple job to do - open the doors - before the much more demanding task of driving the train. If he can't even manage a simple task like that, why should they believe he's capable of correctly driving the train - he could have become ill and disoriented? Better, surely, to ensure the train does not move but stays in the station where help can more easily be given. There's quite a few things to unpick here that I'm not entirely comfortable with. Firstly it wallows in speculation - if the doors don't open it must be the driver's fault or they must be ill or disorientated. I think we need to take it away from the hypothetical and say that if a station was being skipped we would all hope that 99.9% of the time an announcement was made, thereby reassuring passengers. There are occasional stories where a driver has become incapacitated where, if for example, the train rolled a certain distance (something on the northern line where a driver died is at the back of my mind somewhere). I don't think it's helpful to speculate 'what if this, what if that' and again, I emphasise that they are emergency not inconvenience handles. This just strikes me as being interfering and wanting to be a member of staff. It's not Joe Public's job to speculate on what may or may not have happened and delay an entire line because they think they know more than anyone else on what is supposition at best. Finally, and I'm sure it's unintentional, drivers are female as well as male (and may be non-binary as well, for example). As a forum we encourage the use of gender-neutral pronouns so not to assume a driver is male. In your post above, the pronoun 'they' would be more appropriate. We were very pleased to add this as Forum Rule 5g a couple of years ago. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 19, 2020 18:10:02 GMT
There's quite a few things to unpick here that I'm not entirely comfortable with. Firstly it wallows in speculation - if the doors don't open it must be the driver's fault or they must be ill or disorientated. I think we need to take it away from the hypothetical and say that if a station was being skipped we would all hope that 99.9% of the time an announcement was made, thereby reassuring passengers. There are occasional stories where a driver has become incapacitated where, if for example, the train rolled a certain distance (something on the northern line where a driver died is at the back of my mind somewhere). I don't think it's helpful to speculate 'what if this, what if that' and again, I emphasise that they are emergency not inconvenience handles. This is a bit of a straw man argument as I wasn't speculating about what happened in this incident, but on what might go through someone's head in a situation where the train stopped, the doors didn't open, and no announcement was made. Believe it or not, there are people who are extremely nervous on the underground and might find that a very traumatic experience. The point I was trying to make was that it is not just people who are slightly inconvenienced who might stop the train, No idea where that comes from. Presumably someone would operate the handle if they felt unsafe. And it's not LU's job to imprison a bunch of people and take them from where they want to be, and have paid to be taken to, and dump them somewhere else - without a good reason that has been communicated to said people. This problem was (unless the train's PA failed) caused by driver incompetence. If such an incident did cause a passenger to operate the emergency handle (whether that did them any good or not) - either because they are scared, or panicked because they would miss some vital appointment, LU would just have to suck it up and try and do better next time. If LU run the service properly (in this context), there would be no chance of passengers behaving - to some people's minds - improperly (also in this context). I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed by the rather lackadaisical attitude to inconveniencing customers without any explanation. Yes, it was an oversight. I prefer the "s/he" construct but, like most people rattling off forum posts, I occasionally make mistakes. |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 19, 2020 20:07:01 GMT
Anyway, let’s not allow semantics to derail this thread.
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Post by brigham on Jul 20, 2020 10:15:47 GMT
Anyway, let’s not allow semantics to derail this thread. Or, for that matter, the Forum as a whole. |
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Post by westville13 on Jul 20, 2020 17:19:24 GMT
I only used the emergency handle in these circumstances once some years ago at Embankment when I would have missed my last train from Charing Cross if I had been carried over. It felt like an emergency at the time - and was certainly welcomed by other passengers trying to get off.
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Post by 1018509 on Jul 21, 2020 9:08:38 GMT
Blimey I opened a right can of worms here.
In the days I am talking about pulling the handle stopped the train un-like now where it informs the driver a handle has been pulled and may prompt them to make an announcement if that has been overlooked in the heat of the moment
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 21, 2020 9:32:03 GMT
I only used the emergency handle in these circumstances once some years ago at Embankment when I would have missed my last train from Charing Cross if I had been carried over. It felt like an emergency at the time - and was certainly welcomed by other passengers trying to get off. I've pulled the handle once, in 1972 stock on the Jubilee Line (it was a long time ago) because the doors om my carriage (only) had failed to open at both Bond Street and Green Park. At the latter station, passengers were using the emergency door to get to the next carriage when the doors in the rest of the train closed. With the very real risk of someone falling between the cars, I got ready to pull the handle if the train started to move, which it did. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 21, 2020 9:45:41 GMT
Blimey I opened a right can of worms here. In the days I am talking about pulling the handle stopped the train un-like now where it informs the driver a handle has been pulled and may prompt them to make an announcement if that has been overlooked in the heat of the moment That's not how it works (at least not on the 1992 stock) If you activate a passenger emergency alarm while the train is still within "platform limits" it will activate the emergency brake, it you pull it after it has left "platform limits" the train will continue to the next station and activate the brake once the doors are opened Either way the driver has to go back to reset it. If the train has reached the next station then its comparatively easy, the doors are open and the driver can walk down the platform. If the train is partway out the platform the doors can't be opened and the driver has to walk through the "saloons" which might not be so easy during the peak. |
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Post by PiccNT on Jul 21, 2020 12:12:15 GMT
Blimey I opened a right can of worms here. In the days I am talking about pulling the handle stopped the train un-like now where it informs the driver a handle has been pulled and may prompt them to make an announcement if that has been overlooked in the heat of the moment That's not how it works (at least not on the 1992 stock) If you activate a passenger emergency alarm while the train is still within "platform limits" it will activate the emergency brake, it you pull it after it has left "platform limits" the train will continue to the next station and activate the brake once the doors are opened Either way the driver has to go back to reset it. If the train has reached the next station then its comparatively easy, the doors are open and the driver can walk down the platform. If the train is partway out the platform the doors can't be opened and the driver has to walk through the "saloons" which might not be so easy during the peak. And on the 1973 stock, the train will make an emergency brake application regardless of where it is. |
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Post by 1018509 on Jul 23, 2020 22:13:43 GMT
When I left the Picc in January 2011 the 73 stock had a button in the footwell that the driver had to keep pressed to keep the train going to the next station and a means of talking to the passenger at the point where the handle had been pulled - does this now not happen?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 23, 2020 23:53:15 GMT
When I left the Picc in January 2011 the 73 stock had a button in the footwell that the driver had to keep pressed to keep the train going to the next station and a means of talking to the passenger at the point where the handle had been pulled - does this now not happen? As far as I'm aware all stocks have "talk back" for the PEA so the driver can discover why the handle is down and on 1992s we can switch from one handle to another if more than one handle has been pulled down. If the train has left the platform it will carry onto the next station before applying the emergency brake but if any part of it is in the platform when the handle goes down it will stop immediately. There's certainly no button in the footwell or anywhere else on the 1992s, there is a PEA cutout switch in the cab but once that's activated the train has to be taken out of service at the next station so you only use that if you can't reset the handle. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 24, 2020 5:50:47 GMT
When I left the Picc in January 2011 the 73 stock had a button in the footwell that the driver had to keep pressed to keep the train going to the next station and a means of talking to the passenger at the point where the handle had been pulled - does this now not happen? '72/‘73 Stock and previous C & D Stock has a footwell mounted BOD Brake Override Device, which allows the driver to release the emergency brake application, after investigating the initial cause depending on the location of the stop. S Stock have the override mounted on the deadman device. As far as I'm aware all stocks have "talk back" for the PEA so the driver can discover why the handle is down and on 1992s we can switch from one handle to another if more than one handle has been pulled down. Bakerloo '72 Stock do not have talk-back facilities. |
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Post by charlie30 on Jul 28, 2020 15:44:04 GMT
Thank you for all the replies, I can assume as the train kept moving and stopped at other stations the driver was ok, but to add to that there was a delay to open the doors as certain stations and at one point the train did move along in a jolting motion in the tunnel but this was likely unconnected.
To add to posts above, I have been on a train twice when the alarm has been pulled. One time we were almost out of the station and the train suddenly stopped. This caused a rather large woman to fall on top of me. We were stuck at the station for about five minutes but then we just carried on as normal. The other time I was in the carriage where the alarm was pulled as two men were fighting, the doors had been closed and the driver asked what was happening, and should he open the doors as one of the guys had already departed the train. On this occasion a member of station staff came to reset the alarm.
Also had a bit of a bizarre incident one morning, when we were leaving a station and again just as we were almost out, bang the breaks went on and half the people went flying. The driver then asked if anyone had fallen out of the train, please pull the alarm! As if we would not have done that already should a passenger be halfway out the door.
I can only assume the incident I had with the doors not opening, were either down to the driver or a train fault, but I find it hard to believe the doors and PA system would fail at the same time.
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Post by philthetube on Jul 28, 2020 16:34:15 GMT
Your last issue would almost certainly have been down to the driver losing the pilot light, (door closed visual)
Procedure following this is to stop, make a PA asking that if there is an issue, anyone seen a door open of someone falling out for a passenger to operate a pass alarm.
If no response then to carry on, if a pass alarm then to investigate further and do what is needed.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 1, 2020 12:35:56 GMT
another issue which is related to doors is on Central line trains where people leaning on a door sometimes push it out just enough to stop a train from accelerating, and then as soon as they stop leaning on the door the train starts accelerating again - this can result in the train seeming to stop start accelerating in 'kangaroo hops'
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