Rehome a SWR Island Line train ('38 stock)

[humbug]

Anyone?

South Western Railway’s (SWR) 5 Class 483 trains, built in 1938 for the London Underground, have been serving the Isle of Wight since 1989.

But, as announced in September 2019, following a £26 investment to secure the future of Island Line, the current fleet is due to be switched for the Class 484 trains.

SWR is looking for new homes for the trains as soon as possible, to make room for the influx of the first Class 484s for testing this year.

SWR has already had numerous enquiries from perseveration [sic] groups, including the adjacent Isle of Wight Steam Railway.

Organisations interested in adopting a soon to be former Island Train will need to show the capacity and financial security to remove and look after the train, as well as an appropriate long-term physical location for the train.

They may also need to formulate a plan to manage potentially hazardous substance where these remain on the units, which will need to meet the satisfaction of the Office of Rail & Road and other statutory bodies.

The trains are also subject to a statutory Designation Notice following the decision of the Board of Trustees’ of the Science Museum on 4 March 2020. Prior to ownership transferring, SWR would need to ensure the future plans for some or all of the vehicles were acceptable to the Board of Trustees.

The trains are in varying states of repair, with two of them having been used largely for spares in recent years.

Mark Hopwood, Managing Director for South Western Railway said: “The Class 483 trains have been running for 82 years, serving passengers first on London Underground and most recently on the Isle of Wight.

“Despite their age our team at Ryde St John Depot has worked miracles keeping these trains going to provide a vital service for the island. With new trains arriving, now is the time for these trains to find new homes, for a well-deserved retirement.”.

I'm happy to help out perservering a '38...but I think there are a few already perserved.

www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/rehome-a-swr-island-line-train-

[uzairjubilee]

Haha, a £26 investment!?

[Chris W]

Jul 30, 2020 16:36:12 GMT uzairjubilee said:

Haha, a £26 investment!?

I suspect this should be 'Million'...

The perils of being a writer (accidentally missing out the most important word), or even having the most important/essential word removed by editors....

I can relate to both scenarios...

[ted672]

It will be very interesting to see what the outcome of the process is, although it's satisfying to see that the stock has been recognised as historically important. As for any running under their own power, I wonder if the system used for a number of American subway cars may be considered, which is fitting a trolley pole on the roof and erecting overhead line equipment.

[Chris L]

It would be great if Vivarail could convert a unit to battery power for the Epping Ongar Railway.

[Dstock7080]

Jul 31, 2020 9:50:55 GMT ted672 said:

I wonder if the system used for a number of American subway cars may be considered, which is fitting a trolley pole on the roof and erecting overhead line equipment.

To be at a safe height the pole would have to be quite long from the roof of Tube Stock

[ted672]

Jul 31, 2020 10:16:43 GMT Chris L said:

It would be great if Vivarail could convert a unit to battery power for the Epping Ongar Railway.

If a removable battery packs were used, they could potentially be used in other preserved underground stock (with suitable adaptation), opening up considerable possibilities.  Also a couple of heritage railways use, or have used,  class 419 Motor Luggage Vans under their own power with preserved SR units.

[miff]

This group have an agreement in principle to take a unit to EOR and have now started fundraising towards this. Their intention is to keep it in IoW condition and run it on the EOR using either batteries or a generator. They’ve also pointed out the units still in service were originally owned by the LNER.
www.lttractiongroup.co.uk

[spsmiler]

Aug 1, 2020 11:14:46 GMT miff said:

This group have an agreement in principle to take a unit to EOR and have now started fundraising towards this. Their intention is to keep it in IoW condition and run it on the EOR using either batteries or a generator. They’ve also pointed out the units still in service were originally owned by the LNER.
www.lttractiongroup.co.uk

The original LNER units, wow!

It would be great to see one* preserved in LNER blue / grey electric train livery, such as used in Tyneside and the first few Shenfield trains were painted - albeit they never entered service in this condition, but apparently evidence of the paint was found at a later date when some repainting was required (I think it was after accident damage).

I have a static exhibit of just one car in mind - anything more would be like icing on a cake that also includes fine (expensive) wine!

[alpinejohn]

I hope lltraction have deep pockets...

Not wishing to rain on anyone’s parade - but I think this thread is perhaps better suited to RIPAS or even FRIPAS sections of District Dave.

Once you read the whole invitation, it is quite clear South Western Railway are really looking to find someone with sizeable financial resources and ample space to provide a long term home for the whole Class 483 fleet (so not just cherry picking from the 3 units still in running order) hence the explicit mention of the need to remove units which have already been withdrawn/cannibalized for parts.

Reading between the lines (sorry about the pun) it seems South Western Railway just want to have a total clear-out of Class 483 units and their related stores facilities – so that the same buildings can then be reused to carry out equivalent functions supporting the Class 484 units. Ideally South Western Railway want someone else to pick up the whole bill. Doubtless there may be room for negotiation with credible bidders, but they still need the whole lot gone!

Of the original 10 x 2 car sets, only 3 are still nominally serviceable and a further 3 “withdrawn” with the rest already cannibalised for parts/and or scrapped. One by one Class 483 units have failed in service, and with each major failure, decisions have been made on whether it should be patched up or cannibalized to provide parts for the remaining units. That process cannot go on forever and it seems the Class 483 units have now done their bit and need a decent retirement home.

However given the immense cost just to get all the units and related scrap off the Island – that must weigh against any off island move.
The most realistic prospect is that maybe one presentable unit may find a place as a static exhibit somewhere on the island – so the Isle of Wight Steam Railway looks a favourite. The other credible alternative is razor-blades.

As for any of these units ever returning to active use on a preserved line, it is important to remember that these units are now all pretty much clapped out, which is why Island Line service reliability has been dropping.

Remember the youngest unit is still over 80 years old, so without insane expenditure on a complete a bottom up rebuild, there seems little prospect of these units finding further active use let alone being adapted to battery power. They have already done a lot of valiant public service, surviving not just their 50+ years with LU, but many more years on the Island-Line service where they have all been exposed to serious corrosion due to salt water on Ryde Pier.

As for Vivarail getting drawn in, they are first and foremost, a business, not a charity, so there is probably a limit to wishful thinking.

[spsmiler]

Lets see how events work out - what they want and what they actually get may end up quite different.

We have some time - the new trains will not be carrying passengers this year (2020) and we only assume that they will be carrying passengers next year!

[lttractiongroup]

I suppose this is the place for me to look!

My username indicates my affiliation (www.lttractiongroup.co.uk).

To answer a few of the points raised as best as I can currently;

- We are looking at moving a single unit to the Epping Ongar Railway. This was already under negotiation with SWR before the press release came out. They are not looking for a single organisation to re-home all units.

- We are working with the EOR on details of an agreement for storage and operation of the unit. They are excited by the possibilities this opportunity presents.

- We are working with a supplier (not Vivarail) on the provision of battery equipment to install into the unit to allow operation on heritage lines. This has been specified for a range of 60 miles with maximum gradients of 1 in 55 over 0.3km, so perfectly adequate for a day's operation on the EOR including any possible future extensions (which as far as I am aware are not currently planned, but best to have that contingency in place).

- Since we have learned, from the IoWSR directly before the press release came out, that the IoWSR is interested in acquiring an operational unit we have decided that, in order to differentiate the two projects and to better suit the Epping Ongar we will gradually make cosmetic changes to our unit to reflect London Transport condition. We are not intending to make any mechanical changes, such as replacing the '62TS brake controllers that the units currently use.

- Much as I, personally, would love to see someone do a photoshop, model, or train simulator reskin of one of these in the LNER electric livery we are not considering doing it to any unit we may acquire! It may look good though, certainly better than the early-2000s 'Dinosaur' Livery (Not that anything can be much worse!).

- As far as we are aware SWR are reviewing each application on an individual basis and allocating the units based upon that. At this stage we are absolutely as in the dark as anybody else regarding which unit (if any) we might get. We feel that we are in a much stronger position than many possible applicants in that we have a suitable long-term location lined up, a definite plan and (most importantly) are under no illusions about the cost of moving two cars from Ryde to a mainland location, and for the proposed conversion. We know that this will be expensive, we have the quotes to prove it. We also have a gradually increasing stream of financial pledges coming in and are preparing to be able to accept actual donations.

- The Isle of Wight Steam Railway are interested in one for use as hauled coaching stock, as well as an exhibit in their excellent 'Train Story' Museum at Havenstreet.

- One unit, 483007, is currently nearing the end of a 3-year long overhaul. The bogies were seen being worked on at Eastleigh in March and Yesterday the Shanklin-end (D) car was seen (by me!) on the jacks in the shed waiting for the 'new' bogies to be placed under it. With the overhaul not yet complete, track renewals scheduled this month and the withdrawal date drawing ever closer (It will only have continued mainline service of a few months, on better track than '006 and '008 are currently being thrashed about on) this unit is undoubtedly the No.1 prize here and it will almost certainly be preserved somewhere which is able to run it. Where, exactly, is entirely open to conjecture until SWR formally allocate the units their preservation owners.

- The Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board designation, plus SWR's expressed wish that they do not wish to scrap them all (They appear to only be offering five of the six extant units for preservation, suggesting that 2008-withdrawn 483002 has been condemned) means that it is unlikely that we will see many, if any, of those offered for preservation scrapped.

I fear, therefore, that 'AlpineJohn's post is a touch on the pessimistic side.

- Dan
--
Secretary, London Transport Traction Group
[e-mail]
www.lttractiongroup.co.uk

[jimbo]

We are fortunate to already have a 1938TS in original condition that can wander the LU system from time to time. Wouldn't it be nice to put funds to the Q stock restoration project here rather than duplicate 1938TS?

[lttractiongroup]

Yes, Indeed - It can wander quite happily around non-ATO parts of the LU network, and it does look rather beautiful inside and out. However, it is rather less than suitable for heritage railway use, Indeed it is completely un-usable in that environment without something else to essentially shunt it (As was done with the CHT '60TS back in 2014).

That isn't what we are trying to achieve here. Although we all have a particular soft spot for the '38TS I imagine we'd be doing the same if '59TS or '62TS were transferred to the Island way back when; We're looking to provide electrically powered tube stock for a non-electrified heritage railway. Indeed we believe this to be the first such conversion for any heritage EMU for a UK heritage line.

The fact that we have the support base and pledged funding that we do indicates that enough others also see that we're aiming for a worthwhile outcome here.

As for duplication, the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board has designated the best two sets. This means that they must be preserved and SWR must find suitable homes for them. With one of those units nearing the end of a full cosmetic, electrical and mechanical overhaul we feel that it would be a great shame if one of these trains couldn't have a living, active, preservation career rather than simply as hauled stock or a static exhibit.

Two of these trains will definitely be preserved, regardless of anything else.

On a personal basis I do intend donating to the Q Stock restoration at some point. I cannot speak for those others who have deemed our proposed offering to be worthy of their attention.

[A60stock]

How have these trains been running on the Isle of Wight without contrasting door colours as per the rest of the SWR fleet?

[brigham]

Aug 10, 2020 12:09:12 GMT A60stock said:

How have these trains been running on the Isle of Wight without contrasting door colours as per the rest of the SWR fleet?

The paintwork probably has little effect on the actual functioning of the machinery.

[lttractiongroup]

Theoretically they contravene Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations by not having the doors painted in a contrasting colour to aid visually impaired people. This is why on most of the rest of the rail network, and LU, the doors on trains are painted a contrasting colour. I believe that heritage liveries are exempt and that the livery worn by the Island Line fleet is officially considered to be a heritage one (despite the obligatory yellow panel, strange shades of grey and red and modern 'Island Line' branding).

Therefore it's reasonable for someone to comment on the unusual fact that Island Line stock must now be amongst the last stock on the network -outside preserved and railtour stock- to retain this feature.

I personally feel that the more remarkable fact is that they're still (just) managing to maintain a service at this age.

[brigham]

The LNER connection fascinates me.
They were LNER-owned on paper; as far as I am aware they were 'common-user', as far as operating and maintenance was concerned.
In which case, was it just by chance that the Wight examples were LNER ones, or was there some factor which favoured those types?

[lttractiongroup]

As far as I have been able to gather only three of the IL fleet are from the LNER batch delivered in 1940. It's likely to be purely coincidental that these three also happen to be the three remaining serviceable units. It could be that because they're slightly younger than the others they've endured for slightly longer?

Regardless of the reason, we feel there's something rather nice about taking one of that batch to the Ongar branch; Had the war not intervened it's possible that it'd have run by there in LT service. Plus, of course, the branch has its own LNER heritage.

[lttractiongroup]

I have now started a separate thread in the 'historical' section of the forum regarding alleged use of '38TS on the Central Line, particularly on the Ongar Branch. I had doubted it myself, but if anyone can provide some conclusive evidence of '38TS on that line (the Central as a whole, even better the branch) then I would be extremely interested. The relevant thread may be found here; districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31710/1938-tube-stock-central-fiction

[brigham]

The fact that this stock was intended for the Central is good enough for me. I'll be there to see it, all things being equal.
I doubt it would have run in 'Tyneside Blue', though.
Is there any suggestion of that? I can't imagine being on a CLR tube platform and seeing trains of TWO operators following one another!

[lttractiongroup]

As it happens, it would appear that it was unlikely for the LNER units to have been intended to run on the Central as in the event it was decided to use cascaded Standard Stock (or so it has been said elsewhere on here) but it has, instead, been proven that from 1957-1960 a three car set of (non-LNER) 1938TS ran the Ongar Branch shuttles whilst one of the three '35TS units used on the line was away on test train duties.

They didn't run in LNER Livery; Although their official owner was the LNER, they were operated by LT in LT livery. The only mark of their ownership was a small cast plate attached to the solebar.

I admit that I think the LNER EMU livery would suit them, though.

[brigham]

Aug 11, 2020 21:06:42 GMT lttractiongroup said:

As it happens, it would appear that it was unlikely for the LNER units to have been intended to run on the Central as in the event it was decided to use cascaded Standard Stock (or so it has been said elsewhere on here) but it has, instead, been proven that from 1957-1960 a three car set of (non-LNER) 1938TS ran the Ongar Branch shuttles whilst one of the three '35TS units used on the line was away on test train duties.

They didn't run in LNER Livery; Although their official owner was the LNER, they were operated by LT in LT livery. The only mark of their ownership was a small cast plate attached to the solebar.

I admit that I think the LNER EMU livery would suit them, though.

Are any of our community Photoshop experts?

[lttractiongroup]

I'm not very good, but our chairman's better. I might give it a go. Our application was submitted last night, so I'm trying to find things to do!

[lttractiongroup]

How's this for an attempt?
Image 1; LNER '38TS on first bridge out of Ongar
Image 2; Close-up of LNER Logo
Image 3; LNER '38TS leaving Ongar
I quite like it, heretical and sacrilegious though that is. That's not a suggestion that I'd recommend we paint a real one like this though!!

[Chris M]

Unfortunately I can't see the images, "Guests do not have access to download attachments."

[lttractiongroup]

Hmm, curious. If anyone else is having this problem I refer you to here; lur.boards.net/thread/357/london-transport-traction-group

Unfortunately I couldn't work out how to upload the photos directly (if that's an option).

I'm hoping to make this train simulator re-skin available to download once I've finished making a few adjustments.

[rincew1nd]

We don't allow direct uploads. You can use the Tapatalk app or host images online and then embed them within your post.

[lttractiongroup]

Ah right, thanks; that's more than understandable. I'll try and sort them out, not that they're particularly pertinent to the thread's topic.

[lttractiongroup]

With class 483 withdrawals a little over a month away, the London Transport Traction Group are delighted to announce that this evening we were officially informed by South Western Railway that we have successfully secured a Class 483 unit for preservation. A representative from South Western Railway told us;

"I can confirm that you will have a unit for preservation. I can’t confirm which unit yet as the preservation committee have not given me a final answer but it is highly likely to be 483006 and if it is not then it will be 483008 (both of which are currently operational and in service).

In terms of timing – I expect we will be in a position to release the unit for collection around the end of the line closure in March​."

This is truly wonderful news, but also represents only the first step in our journey that we hope will soon see a class 483 unit, cosmetically restored to London Transport condition, running on the Epping Ongar Railway under its own power and visiting galas around the country, taking a tube train where none has ever gone before and introducing the joy of the '38 stock to new audiences.

To do this we require your help. Our pledge scheme has been very successful, but we still require support. Earlier this week we opened up membership and donation options, which may be found on our website - www.lttractiongroup.co.uk

Although these are difficult times for many, we would greatly appreciate any assistance that you may be able to offer to our exciting and innovative project that has the potential to lead the way in electric railway preservation.

If you have any queries, please feel free to contact me by email; [e-mail]