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Post by t697 on Jul 30, 2020 23:02:06 GMT
Just a note to recall that 31st July 2010 was the first passenger carrying day for S8 stock. Met line Wembley Park - Watford, two round trips.
Ten years ago today as I post this.
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Post by Chris W on Jul 31, 2020 19:44:20 GMT
Does this mean that they're reaching a quarter of their passenger user life spans....* ??
* a little less than the younger S7 units
#TimePassesSoQuickly
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Post by t697 on Jul 31, 2020 20:21:10 GMT
Does this mean that they're reaching a quarter of their passenger user life spans....* ?? * a little less than the younger S7 units #TimePassesSoQuickly Who knows eh? Their Met line predecessors the A stock lasted 48-50 years. The concessions to standards that S stock needed (not that many!) are dated to 2055. There's word of the Bakerloo 1972TS which actually date from about 1974 having to last into the 2030s, so about 60 years. Then again, who knows who the world and London will change over time, affecting whether S stock gets an earlier replacement by something suited to changing circumstances, or like the previous fleet they get endlessly adapted to keep giving good service in the changing world. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 31, 2020 21:07:39 GMT
I'm not going to even try to predict how the flux of rolling stock going forwards is going to pan out. Knowing how recent decisions have been made, it will look like we believed something utterly ridiculous retrospectively!
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 1, 2020 9:21:24 GMT
A train really is a 'medieval axe (For classicists: 'ship of Theseus', for the hoi-poloi*: Trigger's broom).
Provided LU have a forward thinking policy to essential spares, there is really no reason any units cannot continue to be upgraded virtually indefinitely.
* No, that is not intended to be taken seriously - think Basil Fawlty.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 1, 2020 12:40:20 GMT
31st July 2010 was a Saturday, I got my first ride on the Monday.
On that day I filmed this...
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Post by t697 on Aug 1, 2020 16:22:37 GMT
Nice video. The ad cards from about 5:50 in the video are fun. We're still waiting for the Faster Journeys promised for the Met with the new signalling. However the track renewals did get 60mi/h running back.
A little retro note, the announcement at Harrow only mentioned the opportunity to change for Uxbridge and Amersham trains. Initially it was overlooked that with the Chesham services changing to all through services and no shuttle, logically Chesham needed to be added to the announcement at Harrow. That was added later.
For those not paying attention 10 years ago, initially only the infrastructure from Wembley Park to Watford and Rickmansworth was ready for S stock at July 2010 and other Met line areas were introduced through to about spring 2011 I seem to recall.
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Post by tjw on Aug 1, 2020 17:35:01 GMT
initially only the infrastructure from Wembley Park to Watford and Rickmansworth was ready for S stock at July 2010 and other Met line areas were introduced through to about spring 2011 I seem to recall. Yes, happy days, when you could take the first A60 stock at Baker Street and change where necessary to avoid a S stock for the majority of your journey. |
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Post by t697 on Aug 1, 2020 18:02:34 GMT
Ha ha, yes did that myself, but when the first hot days came the next spring or summer, folks at Baker St then tended to get on to the nice cooled S stock instead! |
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Post by stapler on Aug 1, 2020 20:52:09 GMT
Ha ha, yes did that myself, but when the first hot days came the next spring or summer, folks at Baker St then tended to get on to the nice cooled S stock instead! They did, and how I loathed the appearance in summer of a D78 when the Ss reached the District! |
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Post by philthetube on Aug 1, 2020 21:14:17 GMT
you would be hard pressed on the MET to find drivers who want to return to A stock.
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Aug 1, 2020 21:49:17 GMT
you would be hard pressed on the MET to find drivers who want to return to A stock. Are there many drivers left on the Met now who drove the A Stock? I've still got mixed feelings on the S Stock vs A Stock thing - the A Stock would still be my preferred mount for nostalgic purposes, having a characterful train and in terms of strict seating capacity. But on the flipside, now that I use (or 'used,' thanks Covid) the Met for the daily commute, I dread to think what manoeuvring around an A Stock at crush loads would have been like, also it'd be nigh on impossible to get any work done on the way in to the office with the cramped seating and bouncy ride. Despite my username and bitter (or to prefer; childish) protest at the time of the A Stock's demise, I think the S Stock is a very competent, if not very compelling train to do the job it's been given. I'd be interested to know what everyone feels now that the S Stock are very much part of the fabric of Metroland, as the A Stock once were. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 2, 2020 7:16:00 GMT
I'd be interested to know what everyone feels now that the S Stock are very much part of the fabric of Metroland, as the A Stock once were. I love the S stock. It's my second favourite after the central line 1938 stock. For some reason I never liked D Stock. I found it uncomfortable, but that wasn't the only reason. Possibly the single leaf doors, but it never really seemed like a proper 'London Underground' train to me. C stock was old, noisy, and bumpy, but friendly. I very rarely use the Met. Perversely, I like the look of what Vivarail have done with the retired D stock. |
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Post by philthetube on Aug 2, 2020 7:25:11 GMT
I would guess that two thirds of drivers on the MET drove A Stock, people don't retire from train driving as a rule, though there is the odd promotion. The MET is a senior line and very few drivers move on from there, I suspect that the pic is the most junior
It would be interesting to know what the average length of service on the underground is, I would not be surprised if it is not something like 30 years for normals, that is not high up managers who come and go.
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Post by countryman on Aug 2, 2020 8:38:14 GMT
I'd be interested to know what everyone feels now that the S Stock are very much part of the fabric of Metroland, as the A Stock once were. I love the S stock. It's my second favourite after the central line 1938 stock. A bit confused by this. 1938 stock didn't normally run on the Central, at least at the west end where I lived. I clearly remember when at my infants school in Perivale (1960-1964), watching the trains on the viaduct over the back of Conway Crescent, and seeing the familiar standard stock being replaced by 62 stock (although some may have been 59 stock). I believe some 38 stock did run on the eastern end although it may have been some of the prototype units. Sorry, off topic. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 2, 2020 8:55:32 GMT
I'd be interested to know what everyone feels now that the S Stock are very much part of the fabric of Metroland, as the A Stock once were. The fact that the A stock, a train conceived in the era of steam and local pickup goods was still in frontline service during London's 3rd Olympics 50+ years later is a testament to the folks that built them and those that kept them going for so long. Even though they were part of my earliest memories the Underground, I don't feel too sentimental about their demise. Those trains were from a quixotic yet long gone era, and their continued service would have come to represent something of a failure by LU to keep up with the modern needs of the network. They had a sterling career, and their last summer of operation was memorable for all manner of reasons but their time had come and their replacements have helped to turn a page in the Undergrounds eternal battle to modernise whilst moving millions daily. |
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Post by geriatrix on Aug 2, 2020 9:14:52 GMT
Can't believe it's 10 years. Not too keen on S8. Might not be the fault of the stock, it's just that travelling from Amersham/Chalfont on an all stations is slow and tedious. I'd prefer a fast A60 to a slow S8 any day. But really, I'd prefer a nice brown slam-door T stock and the joy of running up the platform to find an "empty". Or a Sarah and the Dreadnoughts.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 2, 2020 10:16:32 GMT
I love the S stock. It's my second favourite after the central line 1938 stock. A bit confused by this. 198 stock didn't normally run on the Central, at least at the west end where I lived. I clearly remember when at my infants school in Perivale, watching the trains on the viaduct over the back of Conway Crescent, and seeing the familiar standard stock being replaced by 6 stock (although some may have been 59 stock). I believe some 38 stock did run on the eastern end although it may have been some of the prototype units. Sorry, off topic. I'm confused, too. I was going by: 1) My memory - hardly likely to be that reliable after 60 years. 2) This site which suggests that they were running on the Central line for the exact years I was thinking of. However after reading your post, I checked and found another site that contradicts this. My memories were from Ealing Broadway and Greenford. The one thing I am almost certain of, despite the intervening years, is that we did not join a standard stock trains at Ealing Broadway (this would have been 1957 - 1961). The reason I am so certain is that being that I remember once seeing a standard stock train, further into the centre - no idea what line its working - and being completely captivated by the front unit with its lack of doors and windows for so much of its length. I would not have found it so amazing had I been used to boarding such a train at Ealing. From my point of view it's a real puzzle. |
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 2, 2020 11:11:02 GMT
A bit confused by this. 198 stock didn't normally run on the Central, at least at the west end where I lived. I clearly remember when at my infants school in Perivale, watching the trains on the viaduct over the back of Conway Crescent, and seeing the familiar standard stock being replaced by 6 stock (although some may have been 59 stock). I believe some 38 stock did run on the eastern end although it may have been some of the prototype units. Sorry, off topic. I'm confused, too. I was going by: 1) My memory - hardly likely to be that reliable after 60 years. 2) This site which suggests that they were running on the Central line for the exact years I was thinking of. However after reading your post, I checked and found another site that contradicts this. My memories were from Ealing Broadway and Greenford. The one thing I am almost certain of, despite the intervening years, is that we did not join a standard stock trains at Ealing Broadway (this would have been 1957 - 1961). The reason I am so certain is that being that I remember once seeing a standard stock train, further into the centre - no idea what line its working - and being completely captivated by the front unit with its lack of doors and windows for so much of its length. I would not have found it so amazing had I been used to boarding such a train at Ealing. From my point of view it's a real puzzle. Hopefully this will help-When I was kid we lived in Stockwell, my grandparents lived in Shepherds Bush. For our home journey we would wait at the far end of the platform at the 'Bush, as it was next to the interchange at TCR. For some strange reason the Central ran short trains (4 cars) of standard stock on a Sunday evening! We all had to leg it back to get on it. Until one Sunday-WOW a 'silver train' appeared, and it was 8 cars long (4+4) First time on one, the lighting was blinding, compared to the standard stock they were. This would mean that they were the '1959' stock. I found the seats a bit hard and the lighting too bright. Couldn't wait to get to TCR to get on 'my' train the 1938s  |
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Post by A60stock on Aug 2, 2020 12:02:27 GMT
you would be hard pressed on the MET to find drivers who want to return to A stock. Are there many drivers left on the Met now who drove the A Stock? What would be even more interesting is if anyone knows of any drivers who drove the A stock from new (1960/61), who were still driving it at some point in their last few years of operation (2008-2012). "Even though they were part of my earliest memories the Underground, I don't feel too sentimental about their demise. Those trains were from a quixotic yet long gone era, and their continued service would have come to represent something of a failure by LU to keep up with the modern needs of the network" What about the 1972 stock? Would people say these are anymore fit for service today than the A stock was in its last few years? Is this also a failing of LU? |
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Post by t697 on Aug 2, 2020 15:30:12 GMT
Some might say 1972TS was a failing in the first place! 67TS with 5 more mistakes...
Keeping them going for so long is the achievement.
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 2, 2020 22:26:05 GMT
What about the 1972 stock? Would people say these are anymore fit for service today than the A stock was in its last few years? Is this also a failing of LU? From a collective policy perspective, absolutely. The enthusiast in me marvels at the fact that only two generations of stock on the Bakerloo line are enough to total a century of active service. Transverse seats, no smoking roundels, westinghouse and a maintenance simplicity that is very enviable in a world increasingly reliant on computerised software diagnostics are just some of the reasons why I like those trains. But the transport planner in me reels at the fact that due to the collective indecision of our politicians, civil servants and wider governmental bodies all of which directly impact the decisions LU is able to make, millions are now having to be spent on a fleet in the twilight of their life cycles to meet regulations intended for trains at most half their age. That is one expensive sticking plaster whatever people's sentiments. |
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Post by astock5000 on Aug 3, 2020 2:20:47 GMT
Despite my username and bitter (or to prefer; childish) protest at the time of the A Stock's demise, I think the S Stock is a very competent, if not very compelling train to do the job it's been given. I'd be interested to know what everyone feels now that the S Stock are very much part of the fabric of Metroland, as the A Stock once were. Yes, I may have made some similarly childish comments at the time but even early on in their introduction began to feel that the S stock wasn't so bad after all - the ride is certainly smoother (partly a result of track renewal too), they cope with peak loads well and have all the modern features passengers expect these days. Of course I do still miss the A stock from a nostalgic and enthusiast point of view, but there's little I'm not keen on with the S stock other than the interior colour scheme and warm lighting. It really doesn't feel like 10 years have passed, and it leads me to think of how my first journey alone on the network was on a 1995TS in 2008, so around the same age as the S stock is now. However, aside from a couple of faint memories of those and 1996TS from when I was little, those stocks have never seemed as "new" to me as the S stock still does, likely due to the fact I have no memory of the trains they replaced and so they've "always" been around for me. Time will tell how well the S stock lasts, and that will no doubt depend on a number of factors as it did with the A and 1972 stocks as mentioned above. The impression I have is the A stock is they were well-designed trains that lasted 50 years due to upgrades being required at times when they were still too good to replace. They were only around 25 years old when converted for OPO and that then put them in a good position to be refurbished rather than replaced in the 1990s (a time when so much new stock was needed elsewhere on the system). The refurb then helped them reach the age they did without the Met largely being thought of by the public as the poor relation of the system, as has occurred with other lines having to made do with ageing stock, although their external appearance did decline in their last few years. That's also combined with the A stock being used less intensively than other fleets for most of their life, up until the 1990s / 2000s when service levels gradually increased - more services through to Aldgate also making suitability for that section of the line more vital than it had been in the past. The situation with the 1972TS meanwhile does feel somewhat more like a failing to me due to a number of reasons, not all entirely fair if I'm honest. The Picc's 1973TS (which has its issues but seems more "modern" from its high-quality refurb) was once intended to have gone by now, and had everything continued to plan the 1972TS would surely not have been far behind. With all the funding issues, uncertainty on the likelihood and timing of any extension from Elephant and the 73TS still being the priority for replacement, it's easy to see how new trains for the Bakerloo have been put off to the point that the 72TS may last into the 2030s, and the life extension mods and relative simplicity of the stock may mean they can last that long. But from a passenger's point of view they are very much showing their age, particularly on the exterior with presentation having dropped similarly to the A stock near the end - the difference being that no new trains are on their way. |
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Post by ducatisti on Aug 3, 2020 11:01:10 GMT
Does this mean that they're reaching a quarter of their passenger user life spans....* ?? * a little less than the younger S7 units #TimePassesSoQuickly Depends - will they fit through the Ryde tunnel? The big imponderable is the electronics. The class 91s are apparently having serious problems with getting the hard-wired bits replaced which is one of the reasons for replacement. If the more programmable nature of the new stuff means it can be updated/replaced as needed, then it could last. More careful optimisation on fatigue cycles etc will also be an imponderable when it comes to pushing it past it's design life. Overall, I don't mind them, they are efficient people-movers, just a bit of a shame they look the same on all sub-surface lines. |
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Post by holborncentral on Aug 3, 2020 16:32:09 GMT
I can't believe it's been 10 years! They still feel 'new'. Best thing about them is the space and the air conditioning. Much needed in the heat! I'm almost sure I was on the D78s as a kid as my parents used the District line a lot, but I don't really remember as I don't think I took much notice of which tube stock I was on or the stations or anything. Kinda wish I had now. I'm looking forward to the new Piccadilly line trains though and hope to be in London for the last day of the '73 stock.
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Post by A60stock on Aug 3, 2020 20:37:05 GMT
The main issue with the A stock was the seating arrangement. If this has been modified to a more modern layout such as that on the s stock, (and i say this on the basis that the new signalling is still barely in place), I cannot see why they would not have been fit for purpose today.
Ofcourse, the new signalling would mean they would have to go anyway
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 4, 2020 23:06:19 GMT
The main issue with the A stock was the seating arrangement. If this has been modified to a more modern layout such as that on the s stock, (and i say this on the basis that the new signalling is still barely in place), I cannot see why they would not have been fit for purpose today. Ofcourse, the new signalling would mean they would have to go anyway They needed new bogies; their ride 'quality' was ghastly, especially at speed. I rather liked the bench seating |
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Post by greatcentral on Aug 5, 2020 11:45:47 GMT
Hated them simply because they were new. Became an instant convert in the first hot rush hour when the air con came into its own!
Even chose them in preference to Chiltern Turbo as I think the air con is better.
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Post by metman on Aug 5, 2020 13:44:18 GMT
Still don’t have any real love for the S stock. I loved the A stock and still miss them. The capacity was an issue though and they just couldn’t cope with modern passenger loads. They did very well to make it to 50 years and it was a credit to all involved. The saddest thing is that none have remained in working order.
The S stock do a job though but seem awfully slow (the reduced fast trains don’t help) they are fit for purpose.
Unsurprisingly I love the 1972 stock and will always try and get one given the option! They will hopefully go on longer and do a pretty good job on a relatively simple line.
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Post by greatcentral on Aug 5, 2020 22:13:38 GMT
Can someone remind me what the infrastructure upgrade N of Rickmansworth was. I thought it was the power supply but a friend swears it was the conductor rails!
Being a traditionalist I still miss the Dreadnaught hauled stock. Its not really fair to blame the S stock for the all stations service caused by the lobbying of Pinner Man.
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