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Post by spsmiler on Oct 22, 2020 19:38:36 GMT
I feel sure that apart from roofs and red half cab fronts D stock trains were never painted until they were heavily refurbished and given LU corporate red, white and blue livery.
But someone has commented on one of my videos claiming that they were painted light grey!
We exchanged a few more messages, and I suggested that he was thinking of the R stock, but he is adamant that he is correct and that this was the D stock.
Please help... I would very much appreciate hearing from a more authoritative voice (than mine) on this topic.
Thanks, Simon
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This is the film in question
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 22, 2020 20:21:55 GMT
You are quite correct in that D Stock were left unpainted until being heavily refurbished in 2003-2008. Unit 7008 being vinyl covered as the trial refurbishment in 1999.
There was a period when acid washing was not carried out and the aluminium finish darkened considerably with age, leading to trains being formed with 3-cars dark grey and 3-cars much brighter. (photo was published in Underground News)
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Post by Chris W on Oct 22, 2020 20:58:53 GMT
Incredible that you captured the coal yard, prior to demolition, which is now part of a small housing estate...
The annoying thing is that I lived less than a mile from here [1990-2005], can remember hearing the 1990 steam trips from my bedroom window [my interest wasn't there at the time, so I never even walked a mile to see the trains pass by]... can remember the former coal yard and homes being built... and even, around either 1995/96 or maybe 2000/01 [when I used Hornchurch to commute into London], the bridge and stairs from the station building to the London platform being demolished !!
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Post by stapler on Oct 22, 2020 21:02:33 GMT
Dstock is quite right. They were certainly unpainted right up to the refurb, whether or not graffitists had got them...
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Post by Chris W on Oct 22, 2020 21:19:55 GMT
suggested that he was thinking of the R stock, but he is adamant that he is correct and that this was the D stock. Being born in the early 70s, I can remember the steel R38's / converted Q Stock cars, that were painted grey/white (which had been previously painted train red before my time) that served the District alongside bus red CO/CP units - CO/CP cars disappeared in 1981 and R stock, in 1983. Having travelled on my first D Stock train in August 1980 and throughout their passenger use lives, I can confirm that I never ever came across a painted example... 
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 23, 2020 11:18:41 GMT
Thanks for the replies.
The viewer has visited this page and seen your replies. But... oh boy, is he passionate in his belief that the trains were painted light grey.
The good news is that his reply avoids the 'colourful' type of language that would see him in trouble with YouTube, the bad news is that he still manages to say things which some people will find insulting.
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 23, 2020 12:23:46 GMT
I've just read the comments, I'm sure glad that members on here are a lot more respectful!
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Oct 23, 2020 13:58:50 GMT
Thanks for the replies. The viewer has visited this page and seen your replies. But... oh boy, is he passionate in his belief that the trains were painted light grey. The good news is that his reply avoids the 'colourful' type of language that would see him in trouble with YouTube, the bad news is that he still manages to say things which some people will find insulting. Blimey, you've got a live one there Simon. In fishing parlance I'd recommend setting the reel-drag to allow a decent run but make sure you keep a tight line and vary the angles before netting comfortably.  |
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Post by Chris W on Oct 23, 2020 14:15:43 GMT
I've just read the comments, I'm sure glad that members on here are a lot more respectful! Your post intrigued me, so I had to read it for myself... 
If anyone ever wants to read an example of how NOT to converse with others [think you know it all/aggressiveness etc.), this is the one...   
#TheresNowtAsStrangeAsFolk
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 23, 2020 16:27:36 GMT
Difficult to make out from the videos, but the surfaces of aluminium stock did seem to vary a lot in texture. I always assumed this was related to how recently, and thoroughly, they had been cleaned. Over time a layer of aluminium oxide builds up on exposed aluminium surfaces. If it is thick enough it looks white.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 23, 2020 19:26:30 GMT
I can only imagine that the cab doors of LU aluminium stock were manufactured or treated differently then, as they tended to be very dark when compared to the sides of the cars...??
... 62TS @ Woodford (1992)...
... 59TS on the Bakerloo (1988)...
... 72TS Mk 2 on the Bakerloo (1988)...
... A Stock (1988) - plus the cab corners...
... and also on D78's pre-refurb...
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 23, 2020 19:50:19 GMT
The aluminium sections on many of the vehicles above were formed from different types. Certainly for the A stock they were formed from cast, extrusion and sheet aluminium. These weathered at different rates.
The 1972 stock actually changed door material between mark 1 and mark 2 stocks which was one of the reasons the Mk2 stock had red doors.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 21:18:50 GMT
Another thing to remember some doors didnt stay with the same unit from manufacture to being scrapped.
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Post by Chris L on Oct 24, 2020 5:30:28 GMT
Difficult to make out from the videos, but the surfaces of aluminium stock did seem to vary a lot in texture. I always assumed this was related to how recently, and thoroughly, they had been cleaned. Over time a layer of aluminium oxide builds up on exposed aluminium surfaces. If it is thick enough it looks white. I worked on the project to revert to roundels with UNDERGROUND across the bar which included applying them to trains. The A stock had UNDERGROUND on the sides. The craftsmen painters at Neasden removed the transfers and discovered that they had prevented weathering of the aluminium. This meant that the lettered areas were proud of the bodywork. They sanded the areas back to level things up and applied the new roundels. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 24, 2020 6:20:21 GMT
The A stock had UNDERGROUND on the sides. A Stock had London TransporT, as did 1956/59/60/62. C and 1967/72 mI had UNDERGROUND |
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Post by Chris L on Oct 24, 2020 7:55:21 GMT
The A stock had UNDERGROUND on the sides. A Stock had London TransporT, as did 1956/59/60/62. C and 1967/72 mI had UNDERGROUND Apologies - you are, of course, correct. It took a lot more sanding. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 24, 2020 11:24:34 GMT
Yes there was a curious mix of identities across the fleet. I recall the 1956-62, R stock and A60/62 stocks had London TransporT in red on unpainted/white*, 1967, 1972mk1 and C69/77 stock had UndergrounD in red and 1972mk2, 1973, 1983 and D78 stocks had the red rounded!
*most R stock was painted silver/white.
Eventually most of the above which made it into the 1990s received the red/blue roundel although some 1959/62 and 72mk1 stock retained their original finish.
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neilw
now that's what I call a garden railway
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Post by neilw on Oct 24, 2020 11:42:56 GMT
The doors that Chris W refers to are different because they are castings not sheet metal like the body sides. Obviously a different grade of material which oxidises differently. The doors always were darker than the body panels
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Post by brigham on Oct 24, 2020 13:03:24 GMT
A Stock had London TransporT, as did 1956/59/60/62. C and 1967/72 mI had UNDERGROUND Apologies - you are, of course, correct. It took a lot more sanding. If I recall correctly, they were never completely free of the old wording. |
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Post by Chris L on Oct 24, 2020 20:56:05 GMT
Apologies - you are, of course, correct. It took a lot more sanding. If I recall correctly, they were never completely free of the old wording. It was a tricky task to try and rid of the ingrained dirt around the former lettering. The project had the corporate livery on the agenda at the time with the problem of graffiti rearing its ugly head at the time. Unpainted aluminium had worked pretty well for a number of years but the so called art ruined the finish. Two pack paint was the way forward once the new livery had been determined. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 25, 2020 12:37:27 GMT
Unpainted aluminium had worked pretty well for a number of years but the so called art ruined the finish. As I recall it was not so much the spray paint itself as the highly abrasive substances and processes needed to remove it. |
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Post by brigham on Oct 25, 2020 18:09:39 GMT
Strangely enough, the unpainted Routemaster became grubby in weeks, but the trains looked good for ages.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 25, 2020 18:54:16 GMT
The bus body had many small panels with the joints covered by aluminium beading strips screwed every couple of inches. Plenty of places to catch the dirt.
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Post by stapler on Oct 26, 2020 8:05:18 GMT
And also the bus spent all its time among vehicles with filthy exhausts (whose gases included lead at the time) as opposed to the railway stock. But actually, I thought the 62TS cars, for example, looked tawdry from the mid-60s onwards.
The 30 y-o "corporate livery" must be due for a rethink soon?
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Post by t697 on Oct 26, 2020 8:48:49 GMT
Panel gap sealant must have changed formulation for 73TS and D78 stock. Both oozed an oily substance from the seams for years which picked up dirt and somewhat spoiled the appearance while the trains were still bare aluminium. Also didn't help with prep for painting and subsequent paint adhesion.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 26, 2020 11:05:42 GMT
The 30 y-o "corporate livery" must be due for a rethink soon? Why? TfL don't currently have the money to fix things that are broken, let alone things that aren't. |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 26, 2020 19:32:02 GMT
And also the bus spent all its time among vehicles with filthy exhausts (whose gases included lead at the time) as opposed to the railway stock. But actually, I thought the 62TS cars, for example, looked tawdry from the mid-60s onwards. The 30 y-o "corporate livery" must be due for a rethink soon? Artist's impressions of the new Picc trains give it a tweak - the blue lower stripe becomes a thinner waist line incorporating roundel bar and car numbers, shown here . |
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Post by quex on Oct 26, 2020 21:22:13 GMT
I almost get the impression that the DTUP fleet will have a "brushed stainless steel" look (especially from the original PriestmanGoode renders). I wonder, is the unpainted wheel turning full circle?
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Post by 35b on Oct 26, 2020 22:39:44 GMT
I almost get the impression that the DTUP fleet will have a "brushed stainless steel" look (especially from the original PriestmanGoode renders). I wonder, is the unpainted wheel turning full circle? I hope not - the bare aluminium finish always looked very bald, as though no one could really be bothered to come up with a smart livery. |
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Post by stapler on Oct 27, 2020 8:19:00 GMT
The 30 y-o "corporate livery" must be due for a rethink soon? Why? TfL don't currently have the money to fix things that are broken, let alone things that aren't. Merely because that's what railway companies do. For example: The Quint-arts had three liveries in their 32 years - varnished teak, Stratford mucky brown, and LMS red. The 305s had 3 in their 23 years, green, all over rail blue, and blue and grey. The 315s had about half a dozen in their 37 years, blue/grey, NSE, First, WAGN, One,GA and Overground. Paint and vinyl is a good way of convincing the public you're making improvements |
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