67 stock transfers to/from Hainault / Acton Works

[trc666]

Evening all,

I have a 1978 working timetable for the Victoria line and have a question about the following empty stock transfers:


442 19+50 Northumberland Park Depot - Acton Works
442 21+41 Acton Works - Northumberland Park Depot

443 18+40 Hainault Depot - Northumberland Park Depot
443 21+59 Northumberland Park Depot - Hainault Depot

Did these typically run as 8 car or were they mostly 4 car?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

[jimbo]

This question reminded me that Northumberland Park depot was built with a connection to the mainline which was used for rolling stock deliveries, and for some early transfers direct to/from Hainault. The connection was removed with completion of construction, so after that time inter-line transfers had to take the long route!

[stapler]

When the depot was under construction it was certainly connected to the Cambridge main line. I have a feeling - but no evidence -that it was still so connected in Autumn 69. I'd assumed - possibly wrongly - that the stock transfer trains were then worked from Hainault depot via Woodford, Leyton Station Junction and Loughton Branch Junction, and hauled by a diesel - one of those that Stratford had tripcock-fitted for the freight BR used to work to the Ongar and Newbury Pk via Woodford branches (which has ceased in ?67).There were of course regular early passenger trains over Leyton Stn Jc- Loughton Branch jc until 1970. But memory fades as to exact dates!

[bigvern]

Stock Transfers on the Victoria Line to the Central line would normally be done as a 4 car unit, the units for the Hainault Loop would always be a double ended unit, traditional tripcocks would be fitted at Northumberland Park on both cabs and trains would cross to the Piccadilly line at Finsbury Park, Trains would Run in ATO to Finsbury Park, where the train operator would change over to Tripcock mode using a valve in the offside console. and the Train would be driven manually on the Piccadilly Line, Then to Acton and Ealing Broadway to reverse onto the Central Line, the connection at Ealing Broadway was still in use at this time.

Acton Works transfers would be done as a 4 car if double ended unit with tripcocks fitted, where single ended unit was sent a double ended unit would accompany it to return any single ended unit back as could couple to either and A or D end single unit. the operational single ended cab would have the operational tripcock fitted. not the middle un-operational cab.

Certain Double ended units were always used on the Central line services and did have Central Line Maps underneath the melamine maps, which were removed by NPK Depot staff before transfer to the Central Line, The Destination Blinds already have Woodford, Hainault and Grange Hill so did not require changing

[jimbo]

And of course they were all double ended units when delivered. Later economies meant that not all equipment was maintained or provided in most middle cabs. And then 1972 driving motors were also incorporated into some units without ATO.

[metman]

That’s right until the fleet was expanded most units had operational cabs at both ends.

When did overhauls move from Acton to Northumberland Park?

[bigvern]

Overhauls started at Northumberland Park Late 1985 early 1986 from memory

[trc666]

Thank you so much for the information I really appreciate it!

[fish7373]

Dec 14, 2020 12:53:45 GMT stapler said:

When the depot was under construction it was certainly connected to the Cambridge main line. I have a feeling - but no evidence -that it was still so connected in Autumn 69. I'd assumed - possibly wrongly - that the stock transfer trains were then worked from Hainault depot via Woodford, Leyton Station Junction and Loughton Branch Junction, and hauled by a diesel - one of those that Stratford had tripcock-fitted for the freight BR used to work to the Ongar and Newbury Pk via Woodford branches (which has ceased in ?67).There were of course regular early passenger trains over Leyton Stn Jc- Loughton Branch jc until 1970. But memory fades as to exact dates!

There was no connection between  Northumberland Park depot to the Cambridge main line stock transfers was done at finsbury  park connection to the Piccadilly line to Acton and on the central at eailng Broadway as bigvern says in his post 

[stapler]

Fish, was there then a connection to the main line for the removal of spoil/delivery of material only, not used for stock transfer? In which case I have been under 50 yrs of delusion!

[programmes1]

Traffic Circular supplement 44/67 on the diagram there is a connection to the Eastern Region.

[gantshill]

I recall reading that 1967 stock was able to use a connection direct from the Eastern Region into Northumberland Park (and another one at Leyton to get to and from Hainault) until the Victoria line actually opened, at which point the Finsbury Park connections to the Piccadilly line were used.

Alas, I cannot remember where I read that - I'd need time to look through my books.

[fish7373]

Some history on line www.wikiwand.com/en/Victoria_line

[astock5000]

Regarding the double ended units used on the Central, I spent some time looking through the archive of Underground News earlier in the year (issues up to the end of 1987 are downloadable from the LURS's website) researching the history of various stock. During the period when these transfers were reported, from 1978, all units used were from the 3058-79 block, i.e. those which remained double ended until withdrawal.

This could suggest that many others already had equipment removed from one cab, unless it was simply down to the line maps and a coincidence that those same units were kept as double ended later on? However at least by 1987 they were the only remaining double ended units, though there were some changes when the 1972 Mk1 cars were added soon after with four A end and three D end units being split and all original 1967TS DMs in these made fully operational once again.

From the random pattern of A and D end units and that it was equipment being removed rather than a modification not being carried out (as on 1962TS or A stock) I suppose the situation might have developed gradually rather than being planned from the start? If so it's probably not something easy to research decades later especially with stock that was rarely photographed due to the nature of the line.

Back fully on topic, both the transfers to Hainault and Acton Works indeed appear to have usually been 4-car units apart from one 8-car formation to Acton in March 1978, while the last overhaul at Acton was listed as completed in May 1986.

[Deleted]

Dec 15, 2020 11:56:07 GMT gantshill said:

I recall reading that 1967 stock was able to use a connection direct from the Eastern Region into Northumberland Park (and another one at Leyton to get to and from Hainault) until the Victoria line actually opened, at which point the Finsbury Park connections to the Piccadilly line were used.

Alas, I cannot remember where I read that - I'd need time to look through my books.

You are correct.

Early transfers to Northumberland Park were from Hainault Depot to Leyton using battery locos, thence making their way to Northumberland Park Depot via the temporary connection from BR into the new depot.

20 trains were ready for stage I which opened on 1/9/68.

The first train arrived at Northumberland Park on 1/4/68 (3009+3011).

15½ trains went from Hainault to Northumberland Park via Leyton for stage 1

The Picc-Vic connection (and vice versa) at Finsbury Park was available from 5/8/68.

Just 4½ trains were transferred to Northumberland Park before opening via Finsbury Park.

The Supplement to Traffic Circular for the opening of stage 1 on 1/9/68 shows no connection to the Eastern Region. That is not to say it didn't physically still exist, possibly decommissioned and no longer available.

I have no date when the connection was actually removed.

[fish7373]

Hi i have eastern region supplementary notice of signal alteration Monday 17 February 1969 from temple mills west to northumberland park and angel road and the the diagram shows no connection to northumberland depot in 69. PS would be interesting to see this Traffic Circular supplement 44/67

[fish7373]

Hi more info on here on Delivery and the connection to eastern region and stand corrected found answer en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1967_Stock PS some one sent me the  Traffic Circular supplement 44/67 Thanks to them 

[jimbo]

I read somewhere that for delivery of the replacement fleet, consideration was given to relaying the main line connection for rail transfer of complete trains. However, the economics favoured road delivery of individual cars.

[metman]

Very interesting. I think ATO parts very quickly became a challenge to maintain being new technology and specialist equipment leading to some cabs being unofficially decommissioned?

I assume the supplementary 1972 stock cars were converted at Acton and they coupled to a four car 1967 unit back to Northumberland Park via the Finsbury Park connection?

[Deleted]

The conversions were done at Acton but were reformed there before transfer back to the Victoria Line. Therefore each reformed unit comprised 2 cars 1967 and 2 cars 1972 MkI, the latter in the middle of 8-car formations.

[towerman]

Dec 13, 2020 23:34:33 GMT trc666 said:

Evening all,

I have a 1978 working timetable for the Victoria line and have a question about the following empty stock transfers:


442 19+50 Northumberland Park Depot - Acton Works
442 21+41 Acton Works - Northumberland Park Depot

443 18+40 Hainault Depot - Northumberland Park Depot
443 21+59 Northumberland Park Depot - Hainault Depot

Did these typically run as 8 car or were they mostly 4 car?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

67TS was used to cover for 60TS on the Hainault- Woodford shuttle when 60TS was overhauled at Acton Works.

[bigvern]

As regards single ended units, a number of units had faults which may need time to repair, so effectively they became blocked and put in the middle of the train, after a while and shortages of ATO equipment as Auto Driver Boxes, safety boxes and pick up coils, these items were taken off so became middle cabs only used for shunting.
When the extra units were added to the fleet 14 middle cabs needed to be recommissioned as outer end cabs again, so without knowing the original faults work had to be done, one cab 3107 I remember had a repeated carrier wave radio fault, it took ages to find, it was traced to a loose Wire on the back of a fuse box eventually.