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Post by mindthegap on Feb 27, 2021 18:39:22 GMT
Are there any platform configurations on the Piccadilly Line (or other deep tube lines) where the track is double with platforms on the outside?
<<Rincew1nd: topic changed from "Picadilly Line" to "Outside platforms">>
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 27, 2021 18:56:49 GMT
Are there any there any platform configurations on the Piccadilly Line (or other deep tube lines) where the track is double with platforms on the outside? Hammersmith and Barons Court, to name two. ETA: Although these are still island platforms as the District line shares a platform in each direction. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 27, 2021 19:10:44 GMT
Carto Metro shows the layout at every platform on the system. cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/index.phpThere are several stations (e.g. Russel Square) where the platforms are located on the outside of the formation, but there are still two separate tunnels. I think the closest LU comes to having a single deep-level tunnel with platforms on the outside of tracks is Piccadilly Circus Bakerloo line. |
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Post by mindthegap on Feb 27, 2021 19:16:29 GMT
Are there any there any platform configurations on the Piccadilly Line (or other deep tube lines) where the track is double with platforms on the outside? Hammersmith and Barons Court, to name two. ETA: Although these are still island platforms as the District line shares a platform in each direction. Thanks for your quick reply, I was looking for a deep level station platform where the track was in the middle with platforms opposite, I'm thinking of the oldest Baker Street platforms but deep level? |
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Post by mindthegap on Feb 27, 2021 19:38:01 GMT
Carto Metro shows the layout at every platform on the system. cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/index.phpThere are several stations (e.g. Russel Square) where the platforms are located on the outside of the formation, but there are still two separate tunnels. I think the closest LU comes to having a single deep-level tunnel with platforms on the outside of tracks is Piccadilly Circus Bakerloo line. Nice one. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 28, 2021 9:00:48 GMT
Carto Metro shows the layout at every platform on the system. cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/index.phpThere are several stations (e.g. Russel Square) where the platforms are located on the outside of the formation, but there are still two separate tunnels. I think the closest LU comes to having a single deep-level tunnel with platforms on the outside of tracks is Piccadilly Circus Bakerloo line. Nice one. After I had posted I realised that might be the case as, of course, most of the open air Piccadilly line stations have the platforms outside. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 28, 2021 9:19:38 GMT
After I had posted I realised that might be the case as, of course, most of the open air Piccadilly line stations have the platforms outside. Possibly only due to their District and Metropolitan Railway influences? Can’t think of a new-build Piccadilly station with outside platforms. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 28, 2021 10:11:15 GMT
After I had posted I realised that might be the case as, of course, most of the open air Piccadilly line stations have the platforms outside. Possibly only due to their District and Metropolitan Railway influences? Can’t think of a new-build Piccadilly station with outside platforms. Are the open air stations on the north of the line island platforms? I rarely venture up there. What is the advantage of an island platform for a surface station? It means that you need to use a bridge/tunnel every time you travel rather than (on average) 50% of the time with outside platforms. |
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Post by Chris L on Feb 28, 2021 11:19:07 GMT
Possibly only due to their District and Metropolitan Railway influences? Can’t think of a new-build Piccadilly station with outside platforms. Are the open air stations on the north of the line island platforms? I rarely venture up there. What is the advantage of an island platform for a surface station? It means that you need to use a bridge/tunnel every time you travel rather than (on average) 50% of the time with outside platforms. Stations like Arnos Grove and Oakwood have island platforms but a street level entrance and stairs to the platforms. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 28, 2021 13:51:29 GMT
What is the advantage of an island platform for a surface station? It means that you need to use a bridge/tunnel every time you travel rather than (on average) 50% of the time with outside platforms. The Great Central Railway used island platforms as an efficiency measure, only one set of platform staff was needed. |
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vincenture
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Post by vincenture on Feb 28, 2021 19:33:01 GMT
Russell Square has side platforms. The term outside platform is so foreign to me. Baker Street is stacked for both the Bakerloo and Jubilee lines to provide cross-platform interchange.
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Post by quex on Feb 28, 2021 19:50:02 GMT
The Great Central Railway used island platforms as an efficiency measure, only one set of platform staff was needed. Other reasons the GCR used island platforms was to allow for future expansion, either of the loading gauge (by moving the tracks slightly outwards from the platform) or to allow passing loops to be added more easily at a later date, without the property demolition that would be required with side platform stations. In other words (and to bring it a bit closer to topic!) the end result could've looked something like the original layout of Brent station. |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 28, 2021 20:26:25 GMT
Russell Square has side platforms. The term outside platform is so foreign to me. Baker Street is stacked for both the Bakerloo and Jubilee lines to provide cross-platform interchange. Although the Bakerloo platforms were originally alone, later joined by the new branch platforms. They were no doubt stacked, like Russell Square, to reduce the overall railway width to that of roads above, to avoid disturbing building foundations above. |
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paulsw2
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Post by paulsw2 on Feb 28, 2021 23:44:47 GMT
Hammersmith and Barons Court, to name two. ETA: Although these are still island platforms as the District line shares a platform in each direction. Thanks for your quick reply, I was looking for a deep level station platform where the track was in the middle with platforms opposite, I'm thinking of the oldest Baker Street platforms but deep level? Milf End is one for certain |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 1, 2021 0:03:09 GMT
Thanks for your quick reply, I was looking for a deep level station platform where the track was in the middle with platforms opposite, I'm thinking of the oldest Baker Street platforms but deep level? Milf End is one for certain A deep-level tube service, but only at sub-surface level platforms! |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 1, 2021 4:34:13 GMT
It should be remembered that deep level lines had to be tunnelled whereas sub surface lines were constructed by cut and cover - digging a trench for the track and stations and then covering it. Access to the deep level stations was by lifts (and later escalators) between or beside the platforms.
The companies building the early deep level lines had to buy the properties above the tunnels. This was why some stations like Chancery Lane and St Pauls have the platforms above each other.
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Post by burkitt on Mar 1, 2021 10:46:23 GMT
Aldwych station has the platforms on the outside of the tracks, and for modelling purposes has the advantage that the platforms are just long enough to fit four cars. Here's a diagram from "The Aldwych Branch":  The eastern platform (at the top of the plan) closed in 1917, but that could be ignored for modelling purposes - you could even assume both platforms would have remained open had the proposed extension beneath the river to Waterloo ever taken place, making Aldwych a through station... |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 1, 2021 11:10:13 GMT
Aldwych station has the platforms on the outside of the tracks, and for modelling purposes has the advantage that the platforms are just long enough to fit four cars. Here's a diagram from "The Aldwych Branch": The eastern platform (at the top of the plan) closed in 1917, but that could be ignored for modelling purposes - you could even assume both platforms would have remained open had the proposed extension beneath the river to Waterloo ever taken place, making Aldwych a through station... There is a wall between the platforms. |
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Post by quex on Mar 1, 2021 11:22:04 GMT
There is a wall between the platforms. If we're talking about deep tube stations with platforms opposite each other but within the same tube, then the only ones in London that could be considered to match this description are King William Street or Stockwell in their original forms. However, in both cases the platforms were either side of a single track, a bit like the current layout of Tower Gateway, and did not last very long in service (Stockwell was remodelled even before opening).
Even Piccadilly Circus' Bakerloo platforms don't actually have the platforms sharing the same tube at any point - although one platform is visible from the other.
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Post by ducatisti on Mar 1, 2021 12:06:54 GMT
the only deep-level tunneled stations remaining to have two tracks in one tunnel are (I believe) the Claphams, and they are island platforms, and narrow ones at that. If you split that platform width in half to put one on each side, it would be dangerous even by Victorian standards.
To build a tunnel big enough to have two tracks + two platforms would be approx double the width of standard tunnels. As they have to be circular in section, that means twice as high, so a vast increase in volume of spoil to be removed (and then build back up again).
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 1, 2021 14:24:32 GMT
I wonder if the question is about the type of station seen on many new-build urban metros, which is basically a box with two tracks and outside platforms - and often roof supports in the gap between the tracks.
The answer to that is no - I actually pondered this last summer when visiting the Tyne & Wear metro. It struck me that whilst their north - south alignment city centre stations are basically identical to the deep level 'tube train stations' we have here in London there are some subterranean new-build stations (especially on the east-west alignment) which are of a configuration that I could not recall seeing anywhere in London.
So... whilst we in London have box-like stations with flat sides & roofs (such as Redbridge and Hatton Cross) ours here all have island platforms.
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vincenture
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Post by vincenture on Mar 1, 2021 14:42:10 GMT
Are you sure Russell Square isn't built with side platforms? Side platforms are different from being stacked. Yes, Baker Street iirc used to have only 3 deep-level platforms. When the Jubilee line came another was added. |
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Post by burkitt on Mar 1, 2021 17:19:20 GMT
I believe the only deep tube London Underground station with platforms either side of the track within the same tunnel is North Greenwich. Even then it's a three platform station, with the central terminating track facing the eastbound platform, and sharing an island with the westbound platform.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 1, 2021 19:38:44 GMT
Are you sure Russell Square isn't built with side platforms? Side platforms are different from being stacked. Yes, Baker Street iirc used to have only 3 deep-level platforms. When the Jubilee line came another was added. Surely Baker Street Bakerloo line originally only had two deep level tube platforms with the third platform opening when the deep level route to Finchley Road was built? |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 1, 2021 20:30:44 GMT
Are you sure Russell Square isn't built with side platforms? Side platforms are different from being stacked. Yes, Baker Street iirc used to have only 3 deep-level platforms. When the Jubilee line came another was added. Russell Square photos show only a single platform in each tunnel see so not double with platforms on the outside as originally sought. Platforms might be at same level as at Aldwych, but you wouldn't know to use the station. Originally Baker Street used to have only two deep-level platforms when built. |
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vincenture
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Post by vincenture on Mar 2, 2021 8:27:37 GMT
I think I know what you mean now. In that case I suppose yes there are many stations with outside platforms. This term is getting so confusing. I rather use the terms side, island, underground island, stacked, stacked island (for interchange). Examples of each are: Russell Square, Hendon Central, Balham, Chancery Lane, Baker Street |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 2, 2021 8:45:51 GMT
I believe the only deep tube London Underground station with platforms either side of the track within the same tunnel is North Greenwich. Even then it's a three platform station, with the central terminating track facing the eastbound platform, and sharing an island with the westbound platform. North Greenwich is a cut and cover station and it was originally intended that the platforms would be left in the open air. It was then decided that the number of users required a roof to be put over the trench. Water ingress has been a problem. |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 21, 2021 21:26:17 GMT
As the subject has moved away from the Piccadilly line, the thread has been moved to the stations board.
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