Piccadilly Line East End Signalling

[tut]

I've got a question about the operation of the signalling at the east end of the Piccadilly Line when it was still at Earl's Court.

I understand that when the new computerised signalling was put in in the 1980s it was controlled from a separate desk 5 in its own little room at Earl's Court. The yellow peril doesn't go into very much detail but I understand routes were able to be set manually if required, but operation was generally by local site computer. One imagines, based on later installations such as Wood Lane and New Cross, that facilities were provided for editing the timetable a particular train was running to in order to make the computers do something else with the train, such as reverse it at Wood Green. I suppose other options were also available too like automatic reversing and automatic through working?

In any case, I understand desk 5 would later 'close' and the main control room was provided with a flashy computer display of the area (picture). I find the information displayed a bit bizarre but what do I know. I naturally assumed that the controls came with it, although presumably all from a desktop computer or something these days (well those days) and one is visible in the picture. However I read somewhere that the monitors are for display purposes only and I got the distinct impression the person was saying that there are no longer any facilities for interacting with the system. Either you let the computers control the area entirely by themselves with no input from anyone, even during disruption, or full-blown local control must be taken. Probably it was my misunderstanding as that seems a ... bold call for the time. But I do wonder, before PICU etc., how was the signalling operated. Was there a desk for it and, assuming there was, was it then generally unstaffed except when required?

[nig]

They was in a separate room downstairs commonly know as room 39 it had computers and screens and could control the east end of the line for all diffent sorts of running although they were very old computers that were a bit temperamental.
they were staffed full time by 2 people although do believe they wasn't signalmen but controllers for some reason I can't rember .
The screen in main control room was just for information.
you could also take control from 2 computers at arnos grove depot and mangers were regularly trained on them

[tut]

Ahh that's very interesting, thanks!

[zbang]

See also districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/30001/piccadilly-east-end-computer-system

[jimbo]

The PEECS diagram was the Piccadilly East End Control System in the Earl’s Court Control Room. It was installed to replace the infamous 'Metal Mickey' system, the next generation of signalling control, but was only intended to last ten years in the mid-1990s. Only one of two graphics processors remained functioning, with no spares available and severe ghosting on the screen. It looked smarter than the fixed line diagram, but was no different in terms of useful information. The actual controls were situated in Earl’s Court room 39, a former broom cupboard. PEECS had the single highest failure rate of any signalling system on LU,.and was not supportable after 2018. Replacement was more critical than that of older systems in the room, even before the new Control Room was ready, so Cockfosters to Kings Cross was brought over to PICU in 2016 in room 33 for two years until decisions were made upon whether to go to the new Hammersmith 4LM control room. Once the new strategy was agreed it was only 18 months to move to the new setup using only engineering hours except for one night tube closure to transfer the final six areas. [Underground News, Jan 2020]

[Tom]

Mar 23, 2021 11:54:37 GMT nig said:

They was in a separate room downstairs commonly know as room 39 it had computers and screens and could control the east end of the line for all diffent sorts of running although they were very old computers that were a bit temperamental.
they were staffed full time by 2 people although do believe they wasn't signalmen but controllers for some reason I can't rember .

The facilities in room 39 were originally in the main control room, but in the early 2000s they were relocated to room 39.

Around the same time, there were plans for the 'Command and Control' concept to be rolled out to the Piccadilly line. In theory, this abolished the old roles of Duty Operations Manager, Line Controller, Senior Signal Operator and Information Assistant, and merged them into two grades. DOMs became Duty Line Control Managers, and the others all became Service Duty Managers. The idea behind the restructuring was that it would give a pool of multi-functional staff to do most of the work, with the DLCM slightly more hands off, except during incidents, and a longer-term aim was to relocate the Service Control team away from Earl's Court - the Signalling Function was going to go to new rooms at Acton Town and Arnos Grove, with the line control function relocated "somewhere in Central London", though I don't know if a location was ever finalised. The facilities at Acton and Arnos Grove were constructed but were never used in their intended capacity.

However, not many of the Senior Signal Operators became SDMs, though there were a few. DWS will probably remember who they were better than I can! As I understood it, part of the arrangement was that the PEECS system went to Room 39 and would in future be operated by the SDMs, reflecting their multi-functional capability, whereas the old buttons on the other desks upstairs would remain the preserve of the Senior Signal Operators.

[tut]

Sorry for being dense, but I think I may be getting a bit lost. Don't really like computers Don't know what they're for or what you're supposed to do with them I just know they don't belong on railways

Just to clarify for my sake:

Let's put a date on it. It's 2003. Am I right in thinking that the interface through which the people operated and interacted with the signalling system was there in Earl's Court but it was in a separate room (although it had originally been in with everything else)? Meanwhile, in the main control room with the old buttons and the illuminated diagram was a screen that looked smart but was only for information purposes and was a bit unreliable anyway and that this diagram helped the controllers and folks upstairs see what was going on downstairs but that's all.

Assuming this is the case, I don't suppose anybody has any 'gen' on just what was downstairs and what functions were available? I'm getting the impression that what was downstairs wasn't the original system?

[programmes1]

The site you want is anorak heaven but sadly it's gone there were photos of metal mickey and the PC's that replaced it before going to room 39.

[billbedford]

Mar 24, 2021 7:50:38 GMT programmes1 said:

The site you want is anorak heaven but sadly it's gone there were photos of metal mickey and the PC's that replaced it before going to room 39.

You mean this one? web.archive.org/web/20200117233759/http://www.anorakheaven.com/

[programmes1]

That's the one.

[tut]

Mar 24, 2021 7:50:38 GMT programmes1 said:

The site you want is anorak heaven but sadly it's gone there were photos of metal mickey and the PC's that replaced it before going to room 39.

Yes It had/s some excellent photos of the main Earl's Court Control Room as well and some really nice shots of Farringdon Cabin.

I'm happy to see it can be reached through the archive as I wasn't able to get it to work myself.

[rheostar]

Mar 23, 2021 20:23:39 GMT Tom said:

Mar 23, 2021 11:54:37 GMT nig said:

They was in a separate room downstairs commonly know as room 39 it had computers and screens and could control the east end of the line for all diffent sorts of running although they were very old computers that were a bit temperamental.
they were staffed full time by 2 people although do believe they wasn't signalmen but controllers for some reason I can't rember .

The computers were HP1000s that LU bought second hand from the US Army,

The facilities in room 39 were originally in the main control room, but in the early 2000s they were relocated to room 39.

There was nothing technical in the move, the main reason the computers were relocated to Room 39 was the politics in the main control room. There was a lot of animosity towards the new SDM grade from the existing SSO. It was very unpleasant in the room at times.

Around the same time, there were plans for the 'Command and Control' concept to be rolled out to the Piccadilly line. In theory, this abolished the old roles of Duty Operations Manager, Line Controller, Senior Signal Operator and Information Assistant, and merged them into two grades. DOMs became Duty Line Control Managers, and the others all became Service Duty Managers. The idea behind the restructuring was that it would give a pool of multi-functional staff to do most of the work, with the DLCM slightly more hands off, except during incidents, and a longer-term aim was to relocate the Service Control team away from Earl's Court - the Signalling Function was going to go to new rooms at Acton Town and Arnos Grove, with the line control function relocated "somewhere in Central London", though I don't know if a location was ever finalised. The facilities at Acton and Arnos Grove were constructed but were never used in their intended capacity.

The 'somewhere in central London' even included building a new control room on a triangle of land at Acton Town and at one point, South Ken was looked at but dismissed (It's somewhat ironic that the Picc ended up there years later!) . The two new rooms at Arnos Grove and Acton Town became some of the most expensive store rooms on the Underground.

However, not many of the Senior Signal Operators became SDMs, though there were a few. DWS will probably remember who they were better than I can! As I understood it, part of the arrangement was that the PEECS system went to Room 39 and would in future be operated by the SDMs, reflecting their multi-functional capability, whereas the old buttons on the other desks upstairs would remain the preserve of the Senior Signal Operators.

From memory, only about five or six of the SSOs became SDMs. They were fine at operating the PEECS system, but couldn't qualify as controllers.  For several years the people that qualified only on the signalling desk remained as SDMs, but earning a higher rate of pay than the SSOs.  This was part of the animosity towards some the SDMs.

In my Flickr album there's pictures of the HP1000s and the original computer desk in the control room. Follow the link below.

www.flickr.com/photos/13358266@N02/albums/72157697764060185/with/31059057048/