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Post by taylor on Apr 1, 2021 11:43:53 GMT
(Not my first post, but lost my ID and password a while ago.)
My favourite on automatically signaled lines is, “We are being held at a red signal…”
Least favourite on SSR: approaching S. Ken. in March 2021 “...Change here for the Piccadilly Line” even though many station announcements in the vicinity correctly advise the year-long skip-stop of that line there. Strange because on Sundays, we hear the DPA include veritable ‘catechism’ of lines closed due to planned engineering work.
Finally, two enchanting announcements heard in the last couple of days. At Gloucester Rd. on Sunday 28 Mar. 2021, a whole list of sections of lines including H&C and Circle were sadly said to be not operating due to a lack of Control Room staff. The information conflicted somewhat with the current Weekend Travel information bulletin. And to end on a delightful note, from the creative guys at Stockwell: Monday afternoon, 29 Mar. 2021 around 15h. “Renew your weekly travel card or season when you come home on Friday evening and avoid the queue at the booking office on Monday morning.” Lovely.
Any favourites?
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Post by class411 on Apr 1, 2021 14:09:48 GMT
My favourite on automatically signaled lines is, “We are being held at a red signal…” Favourite for being the most stupid? I've always maintained that that was one of the daftest announcements on LU (or anywhere, for that matter). Anyone who knows the slightest thing about railways knows that if a train stops between stations it is almost invariably because a signal is red. (Unless it stops because one of its mates is approaching from the other direction and it fancies a chat.) And anyone who does not know that probably won't understand the message anyway. It just adds to the audio clutter that makes people turn off and potentially miss important and sensible announcements. |
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Post by t697 on Apr 1, 2021 15:08:51 GMT
I'm curious as to what DPA stands for.
I've raised the point about 'red signal' being a little archaic on some LUL ATC lines. The relevant TfL authority chose not to update it yet.
There's a current ruling about telling passengers something relevant as soon as a train is held between stations for more than 30 seconds. Used to be 2 minutes. Probably why this admittedly not very helpful message is used so much.
S stock has another one about waiting for a vacant platform at the station ahead, which is a little more informative.
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Post by Colin on Apr 1, 2021 15:53:47 GMT
My favourite on automatically signaled lines is, “We are being held at a red signal…” Favourite for being the most stupid? I've always maintained that that was one of the daftest announcements on LU (or anywhere, for that matter). Anyone who knows the slightest thing about railways knows that if a train stops between stations it is almost invariably because a signal is red. (Unless it stops because one of its mates is approaching from the other direction and it fancies a chat.) And anyone who does not know that probably won't understand the message anyway. It just adds to the audio clutter that makes people turn off and potentially miss important and sensible announcements. I've raised the point about 'red signal' being a little archaic on some LUL ATC lines. The vast majority of people travelling on our services are not enthusiasts and have no comprehension of the notion that they are travelling on an automatically operated railway. I'm quite certain that even someone with the most basic of IQ's can decipher the concept of being held a red signal. There are plenty of traffic lights, door entry traffic light systems, pedestrian crossings that use green & red indications, etc, etc. It's really not something that requires any specialist knowledge. I'm curious as to what DPA stands for. Digital Public Announcement? The term we usually use on the railway is DVA which is Digital Voice Announcement. Alternatively, some use the term CIS (Customer Information System). There's a current ruling about telling passengers something relevant as soon as a train is held between stations for more than 30 seconds. Used to be 2 minutes. Probably why this admittedly not very helpful message is used so much. S stock has another one about waiting for a vacant platform at the station ahead, which is a little more informative. The real time announcement standard is a PA within 30 seconds when held at a red signal or being held by the ATP (Automatic Train Protection) signalling system with an update after 3 minutes. If held in a station, the real time announcement standard is a PA within 90 seconds then an update after 3 minutes. The above real time announcement standards were brought in after the bombings in 2007 following customer satisfaction survey feedback. |
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Post by taylor on Apr 1, 2021 16:36:05 GMT
The point about "audio clutter" well taken. Perhaps, "We'll be moving ahead as soon as traffic permits" would be a better initial announcement.
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Post by class411 on Apr 1, 2021 16:52:45 GMT
I'm quite certain that even someone with the most basic of IQ's can decipher the concept of being held a red signal. There are plenty of traffic lights, door entry traffic light systems, pedestrian crossings that use green & red indications, etc, etc. It's really not something that requires any specialist knowledge. What you are basically saying is that the announcement is for travellers who did not know that trains are controlled by signals, but will be able to work that out on the basis of that announcement. (Not that it gives them any real indication as to when the train might move again.) There are reasons why a train would stop between stations but they are comparatively very rare. Even non enthusiasts must realise that if the train stops between stations, it is being held at a red signal. Therefore the announcement imparts precisely no useful information. It would be far better to wait a couple of minutes by which time the driver might have some information that is actually useful. Also, it's perfectly possible that the message (roughly) "this train is being held at a red signal and will proceed shortly" will be incorrect in the event of a major incident ahead. If a train has broken down it might take a considerable amount of time before the line starts moving. Thus the announcement is either entirely useless, or potentially downright wrong. It never gives information that is of any real use to passengers. |
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Post by Colin on Apr 1, 2021 17:22:28 GMT
You're reading far too deeply into it!
The whole point of the initial PA's is reassurance. As I mentioned above, the current PA standard was brought in after 7/7 following customer feedback.
By making the initial PA we are reassuring customers that there is nothing untoward going on. We are in control and everything is routine and normal. The three minute update is the PA where we should be giving relevant information.
There is nothing more frustrating than sitting on a train with a silent driver.
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Post by class411 on Apr 1, 2021 17:39:28 GMT
You're reading far too deeply into it! The whole point of the initial PA's is reassurance. As I mentioned above, the current PA standard was brought in after 7/7 following customer feedback. By making the initial PA we are reassuring customers that there is nothing untoward going on. We are in control and everything is routine and normal. The three minute update is the PA where we should be giving relevant information. There is nothing more frustrating than sitting on a train with a silent driver. I think it's more to the point that LU are seriously underthinking it. Normally trains move along, they stop, they start. Especially on a crowded and complex system like a large metro. Passengers know this and are unlikely to be concerned provided the train starts in a minute or so. It really isn't news that a the train has stopped because a signal is red. Now, when something that is going to cause a serious delay occurs, I seriously doubt that all the drivers held at red signals find out about the situation within 30 seconds and either make the appropriate announcement or inhibit the automatic system from making a false announcement. So we have two situations: One where everything is normal and the information is pointless, because everyone knows that trains stop and start between stations, and the other where there is a real, longer term, problem, and the information is a lie. I've heard that announcement so many times and it has never imparted any information (except, I suppose that the train hasn't stopped because of a cow on the tracks). Instead, every time I hear it I think, "What bloody idiot thought it was a good idea to do that?" |
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Post by Chris M on Apr 1, 2021 19:26:53 GMT
No, LU have thought about it, the result of that thinking was they asked passengers what they want. The majority want the driver to speak to them within about 30 seconds if they stop between stations. Yes stopping is normal, but passengers want to be explicitly told it's normal. You might not be concerned, but some people are, and it's much better that they are reassured than they start panicking. Not everybody does know that trains routinely stop and start between stations.
The first announcement is 100% intended as reassurance. It's not false (other than, possibly, the signal being "red" on ATO lines, but that's exceedingly trivial) - you are being held and you should (not will) be on the move shortly. None of that changes when a second announcement gives a reason why you're being held, you were not lied to.
London Underground does have an issue with unnecessary announcements but the 30-second announcements are very much not one of them.
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Post by North End on Apr 1, 2021 21:34:58 GMT
You're reading far too deeply into it! The whole point of the initial PA's is reassurance. As I mentioned above, the current PA standard was brought in after 7/7 following customer feedback. By making the initial PA we are reassuring customers that there is nothing untoward going on. We are in control and everything is routine and normal. The three minute update is the PA where we should be giving relevant information. There is nothing more frustrating than sitting on a train with a silent driver. I think it's more to the point that LU are seriously underthinking it. Normally trains move along, they stop, they start. Especially on a crowded and complex system like a large metro. Passengers know this and are unlikely to be concerned provided the train starts in a minute or so. It really isn't news that a the train has stopped because a signal is red. Now, when something that is going to cause a serious delay occurs, I seriously doubt that all the drivers held at red signals find out about the situation within 30 seconds and either make the appropriate announcement or inhibit the automatic system from making a false announcement. So we have two situations: One where everything is normal and the information is pointless, because everyone knows that trains stop and start between stations, and the other where there is a real, longer term, problem, and the information is a lie. I've heard that announcement so many times and it has never imparted any information (except, I suppose that the train hasn't stopped because of a cow on the tracks). Instead, every time I hear it I think, "What bloody idiot thought it was a good idea to do that?" I can see two sides to it. Personally I feel 30 seconds is too premature. A minute would be more reasonable, as this would wash away most routine inter-station stops. I don’t see it as particularly professional when the driver comes on the PA, and just at that moment the signal clears and the train moves (especially on the ATO lines where the driver can’t leave it a few more seconds before moving off!) - to me this hardly gives the impression that the driver is on top of things, on the contrary in fact. However a bigger problem is that the 30-second PAs have become so routine, that it might be seen as concerning if you *don’t* hear one, which has a habit of being the case when there’s something actually kicking off, either because the driver is busy doing something else, or in the heat of the moment forgets to make the PA. Personally I’m all for keeping people informed as to what’s going on, however I’d prefer to trust the professional judgement of the £60k driver as to what information is given and when. If the powers that be are concerned about inter-station stops being a matter of apprehension, then there’s other ways of addressing that. |
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Post by class411 on Apr 2, 2021 8:44:25 GMT
No, LU have thought about it, the result of that thinking was they asked passengers what they want. The majority want the driver to speak to them within about 30 seconds if they stop between stations. I think that when the passengers said that they assumed that the people requiring their answers were intelligent enough to realise that they wanted meaningful information from the driver. In fact the 'information' they get is useless. Whether the train has stopped because the platform it needs at the next station isn't available, or a terrorist attack has blown up half the underground, they will hear exactly the same 'reassuring' message. Even when the person (or system) telling them that has absolutely no idea at all whether the stop is routine or something that could result in a very significant delay - i.e. whether it is normal or not? That's really clutching at straws. I've spent hundreds of hours on the Underground before these announcements were common and witnessed hundreds of inter station stops and not once seen or heard any evidence of panic (unless the lights go out in which case I've occasionally heard the odd gasp). This is getting ridiculous. The number of people who don't know that trains stop and start between stations must be infinitesimal. And if they are that nervous and that ignorant they are just as likely to be spooked by the term 'red signal' as they are by the train stopping. (Not to mention all the noise, jolts, and lurches they experienced on their journey before the train stopped). The information may be correct, but it's utterly useless. It's the LU version of: "Something must be done" "This is something, let's do it" In this case, "tell them something that is true but completely unhelpful. I disagree, and I can assure you I'm not alone. Every single person that I've asked (that actually takes note of announcements) thinks they are stupid, and an unwelcome intrusion. What I think we would all like is a brief explanation of the problem and an estimate (if available) of the delay. Not a message which effectively tells us that the train has stopped and will start again at some unspecified time in the future. ETA: I should point out, I've realised, that it is not announcements made by drivers where they speak the message themselves that I and others have found annoying. It's the automated announcement on S-Stock sets that are the main problem. I don't know if they are fully automatic or if the driver has to press a button to initiate them (if the later, they may hit the button as soon as the train stops so as not to forget), but they seem to occur more quickly than 30 seconds after the train stops (no way of checking at the moment). When you're doing a 'Circle Line Limp' from Paddington to King's Cross where the train crawls from signal to signal, the identical message, which is clearly not being spoken by the driver, every time the train stops is infuriating. I can actually see that hearing the driver speaking could be reassuring, as you know that he's alive, conscious, and monitoring the situation. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 2, 2021 9:54:38 GMT
Thread title now amended to DVA, which is the accepted acronym. A full list of acronyms and abbreviations can be found here:
districtdavesforum.co.uk/board/25/forum-rules-information-tutorials
On a separate note, could members actually read other people’s posts before commenting, and accept that there are more considerations with automatic announcements, other than the fact that you may find them annoying. We have a wealth of knowledge from people “on the job” or “in the know”, and we should be more careful than to just ignore their input. 👍
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Post by Chris M on Apr 2, 2021 11:23:45 GMT
In fact the 'information' they get is useless. Whether the train has stopped because the platform it needs at the next station isn't available, or a terrorist attack has blown up half the underground, they will hear exactly the same 'reassuring' message. They know the driver is still awake, paying attention and in control of the train. This is reassuring and not useless. Even when the person (or system) telling them that has absolutely no idea at all whether the stop is routine or something that could result in a very significant delay - i.e. whether it is normal or not? Yes, that's why it's not the only message. Every stop is routine until it isn't. That's really clutching at straws. I've spent hundreds of hours on the Underground before these announcements were common and witnessed hundreds of inter station stops and not once seen or heard any evidence of panic (unless the lights go out in which case I've occasionally heard the odd gasp). Have you considered that the people who were so concerned might not have been travelling before the announcements? Or that you might not be aware of everybody on every train? Or perhaps that not every sign of worry is obvious to strangers, especially if people are trying not to show it? The information may be correct, but it's utterly useless. It's the LU version of: "Something must be done" "This is something, let's do it" In this case, "tell them something that is true but completely unhelpful. This makes me really glad that you are not in charge of responding to passenger feedback. The messages are what people have said they wanted, they are neither useless nor unhelpful to those that want them, even if they are to you personally. I disagree, and I can assure you I'm not alone. Every single person that I've asked (that actually takes note of announcements) thinks they are stupid, and an unwelcome intrusion. How many people have you asked? Are they a representative sample of the public, including those who don't regularly travel by train? I can't prove it but I would be amazed if it was fewer than London Underground, who have been regularly asking many people exactly this sort of thing for many years, and receiving feedback about it for many years. They have employed professional organisations to get a sample that is as representative as possible. What I think we would all like is a brief explanation of the problem and an estimate (if available) of the delay. Not a message which effectively tells us that the train has stopped and will start again at some unspecified time in the future. That's the point of the second message. If you are just going to respond with more straw men and dismissal of points of view that don't agree with your own then please do not be surprised if people stop listening and responding to you. |
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Post by Colin on Apr 2, 2021 13:59:52 GMT
Considering ChrisM dosen’t work for London Underground, he has grasped the concept perfectly.
I cannot add anything to what he’s posted other than endorse it as exactly why we do what we do when it comes to train bourne PA’s.
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Post by zbang on Apr 2, 2021 16:20:40 GMT
Since this topic seems to be concentrating on SSR and tube lines, do the other local lines (Crossrail, DLR, Overground, NatRail, etc) also make announcements when they stop short of a station? Granted that it's much less likely on NatRail services but could happen on any line that's either running a busy service or has multiple tracks merging into a single station (e.g. DLR from Lewisham and Woolwich/Becton heading to Westferry or the Overground from Enfield/Chingford to Hackney Downs).
(Side question- is there a map/list that gives the accepted line names/references? I suppose the outer terminal name would do the job most of the time.)
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Post by John Tuthill on Apr 2, 2021 16:46:37 GMT
Considering ChrisM dosen’t work for London Underground, he has grasped the concept perfectly. I cannot add anything to what he’s posted other than endorse it as exactly why we do what we do when it comes to train bourne PA’s. Well said |
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Post by selbiehouse on Apr 2, 2021 17:34:58 GMT
My favourite is when on the northbound Northern Line we are told that the next station is Euston (Charing Cross branch). Valid on the southbound but irrelevant on the northbound.
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Post by class411 on Apr 2, 2021 17:40:24 GMT
Considering ChrisM dosen’t work for London Underground, he has grasped the concept perfectly. I cannot add anything to what he’s posted other than endorse it as exactly why we do what we do when it comes to train bourne PA’s. I think we were really talking at cross purposes - which was entirely my fault. I was thinking solely of the pre-recorded announcements on S-stock, which appear to be completely automated, and are exactly the same every time they operate, which can be many if there is some minor problem with slow running. I wasn't talking about announcements made by actual drivers. That's because a) I use SSR a lot more than the tubes, and b) when on tube trains the drivers don't seem to make an announcements every time the train stops for a short time, and when they do, they generally seem to contain more real information (although that may just be a matter of perception). Can anyone say whether the S-stock announcements are fully automatic (i.e. they fire by themselves when the train stops at a virtual red), or whether the driver initiates them? |
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Post by Colin on Apr 2, 2021 17:54:58 GMT
In relation to stops between stations, the pre-recorded announcements are driver initiated.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 2, 2021 19:04:45 GMT
AIUI pre-recorded announcements are preferred where possible for (a) clarity (a professional voice artist in a studio is always going to be clearer than a driver in a train cab) and (b) it means the same message can be presented on visually for those who can't hear and/or find written information easier to understand (for whatever reason) the audio announcements.
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Post by philthetube on Apr 2, 2021 19:07:49 GMT
This is true although there is an advantage to a human voice, it gets peoples attention while they often don't hear a recorded one.
If I ever have to pass a signal at danger, (because of signalling issues) which will result in the train coming to a sharp stop, I always make an announcement asking people to listen to the recorded announcement which is to follow,
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Post by cso on Apr 2, 2021 20:09:55 GMT
This is true although there is an advantage to a human voice, it gets peoples attention while they often don't hear a recorded one. Quite - this is a key point to me... the automated announcements may become repetitive and then regular users may switch off to them. I assume this is why the Jubilee at Wembley Park has a different voice for when the train terminates there... |
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Post by 35b on Apr 3, 2021 9:46:45 GMT
Since this topic seems to be concentrating on SSR and tube lines, do the other local lines (Crossrail, DLR, Overground, NatRail, etc) also make announcements when they stop short of a station? Granted that it's much less likely on NatRail services but could happen on any line that's either running a busy service or has multiple tracks merging into a single station (e.g. DLR from Lewisham and Woolwich/Becton heading to Westferry or the Overground from Enfield/Chingford to Hackney Downs). (Side question- is there a map/list that gives the accepted line names/references? I suppose the outer terminal name would do the job most of the time.) I regard Underground practice in this area as something that the main line network should aspire to. |
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Post by philthetube on Apr 3, 2021 14:55:16 GMT
I agree, even as a driver on the underground I soon start wondering when on main line services, especially if I have to be somewhere.
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Apr 4, 2021 15:15:39 GMT
My personal experience on SE is that after about a minute the driver will say something along the lines of "I've just spoken to the signaller and we should be on the move soon due to a slow train etc etc etc"
On the DLR, I think the PSA says that there's a problem somewhere beforehand. Those bings are actually rather reassuring, in a way.
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Post by alpinejohn on Apr 4, 2021 15:29:48 GMT
My personal experience on SE is that after about a minute the driver will say something along the lines of "I've just spoken to the signaller and we should be on the move soon due to a slow train etc etc etc" On the DLR, I think the PSA says that there's a problem somewhere beforehand. Those bings are actually rather reassuring, in a way. Absolutely - reassurance is the motive here. Left to their own devices we all know that without adequate information it is only a matter of time before customers start taking matters into their own hands - prising open doors and alighting to the permanent way especially if they are in close proximity to a station or roadway. I bet most railway staff on here - who doubtless will make or hear similar announcements far more frequently than even the most committed commuter - are happy to live with the occasional annoyance of making potentially rather trite announcements to keep the passengers reassured rather than face having to deal with the chaos of passengers deciding they are out of here... |
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