Working timetables "private" marking

[Chris M]

Jun 1, 2021 10:17:01 GMT superteacher said:

Although TFL working timetables are available on the TFL website, we do not allow direct links to them to be posted on the forum as they are still officially marked "Private - for staff use only".

Does anyone know why the timetables continue to be marked as "private" given they have been routinely published for some years now? "For staff use only" does make sense, given that they are indeed intended for exactly that, but they are no longer private.

<<rincew1nd: It's worth noting that superteacher has corrected the forum's position; as per the rules, we allow material published via FoI requests to be on the forum - even if it is still marked as private by TfL!>>

[North End]

Jun 1, 2021 11:19:31 GMT Chris M said:

Jun 1, 2021 10:17:01 GMT superteacher said:

Although TFL working timetables are available on the TFL website, we do not allow direct links to them to be posted on the forum as they are still officially marked "Private - for staff use only".

Does anyone know why the timetables continue to be marked as "private" given they have been routinely published for some years now? "For staff use only" does make sense, given that they are indeed intended for exactly that, but they are no longer private.

To be honest, I’m surprised the timetables have been made so freely available, considering not too many years ago they were sufficiently hard to get hold of that even staff couldn’t always get access.

For starters they’re a potentially useful resource for anyone looking to identify when trains might be in an open-air siding for graffiti purposes. It’s very surprising LU doesn’t seem bothered about this.

[quex]

TfL's information transparency policy is confusing and conflicting to say the least.

As an example, they refuse every many FOI requests for line gradients and speed limits on the grounds that to release the information would present a security risk (despite the information being officially publicly available through other channels for certain routes including most of TfL Rail and LO, and almost any other rail route in the country). They also regularly release rolling stock technical data sheets, with detailed information that I'm dubious should be so easily available - although clearly the info team have decided this fine to be in the public domain.

I will say there are other data sources TfL provide, to anyone with access to Google, that let you know all sorts of worrying things, including "vulnerabilities" of the tube system.

So I'd suggest there may not a (good) reason for the inconsistency with WTTs.

[superteacher]

It's a very interesting point! If they deems it necessary to mark a document as private, why would they want the information contained within it to be made public?

[taylor]

There may be a fine legal point here. 'Private' doesn't necessarily mean secret. Even though an entitiy's operational information is printed so that those who need to know (e.g. companies bidding for work) can access it, it doesn't mean you can use the information to substantiate a law suit against said entity, unlike published by-laws. As well as the working timetables, from time to time, via the London Transport Museum TfL also sells very comprehensive infrastructure diagrams of every part of the Underground network, which show power supplies, access points for engineers, where keys are held for specific parts of the infrastructure etc. The info is not published per se, but is available for inspection and sometimes purchase.

[Red Dragon]

Jun 1, 2021 13:19:32 GMT North End said:

they’re a potentially useful resource for anyone looking to identify when trains might be in an open-air siding for graffiti purposes. It’s very surprising LU doesn’t seem bothered about this.

I assume vandals who have the wherewithal to locate the working timetables could also just use the logic of observing when there are usually trains in the sidings they're interested in?

[Tom]

I think the relevant point about LU working timetables is made on the TfL Timetables page (also identified by Taylor):

Important: These timetables are made available for rail industry professionals and should not be confused with the passenger version which is available using Journey Planner

They are provided for organisations who have a legitimate need to use them, for example to plan or bid for a piece of work, in much the same way as Network Rail's working timetables are. That said, I'm surprised they haven't been moved into another, private, password protected part of TfL's IT infrastructure.

Jun 1, 2021 14:01:25 GMT quex said:

TfL's information transparency policy is confusing and conflicting to say the least.

As an example, they refuse every FOI request for line gradients and speed limits on the grounds that to release the information would present a security risk (despite the information being officially publicly available through other channels for certain routes including most of TfL Rail and LO, and almost any other rail route in the country).

Which is odd, because I can remember a FoI request for signalling scale plans which do contain such data, and that request was fulfilled.

Jun 1, 2021 15:13:24 GMT taylor said:

As well as the working timetables, from time to time, via the London Transport Museum TfL also sells very comprehensive infrastructure diagrams of every part of the Underground network, which show power supplies, access points for engineers, where keys are held for specific parts of the infrastructure etc.

Indeed so and I was one of the people who was very surprised that those documents were being sold to the public. My memory was it was the LTM doing it, I think there are parts of LU who would have vetoed the sale had they known.

[taylor]

Jun 1, 2021 17:27:55 GMT Tom said:

Indeed so and I was one of the people who was very surprised that those documents were being sold to the public. My memory was it was the LTM doing it, I think there are parts of LU who would have vetoed the sale had they known.

I’m pretty sure slightly out-dated documents get sent over to the LTM and those surplus to archive requirements raise essential funds for preservation. My wife spotted those diagrams and bought them me for Christmas! (However, they are not actually 1946 issues of The Post Office Electrical Engineers Journal (wink) which certain individuals of the security services are supposed try to snap up when there’s an antiquarian book sale! But even Mrs Thatcher gave that game away by reporting her use of the tunnel connecting the Cabinet Office to the MOD at the start of the Falklands war. The really classified secret, (never revealed) was what colour nightie she was wearing under her night-robe as she strode under Whitehall!)

Back to topic, its probably best not to shout too loudly about what is available, as certain jobsworths with little to do will celebrate their officiousness and cancel access to documents, which are available. We are so lucky to have staff members who post here with care and insight.; and I’ll happily see my post above deleted if the mods decide it’s the wisest choice.