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Post by programmes1 on Aug 13, 2021 16:07:59 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car.
TIA
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 14, 2021 10:09:02 GMT
Trials of the ATO system that would eventually be used on the Victoria Line commenced 5th April 1964 on the Hainault - Woodford Loop (not the "Hainault branch" Leytonstone - Hainault) with one 1960 stock train that had been modified operating a shuttle service. Later the Woodford - Hainault shuttle was used to test the 1967 stock.
I seem to recall that someone on here found a YouTube video of it.
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Post by jimbo on Aug 14, 2021 21:11:16 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car. I find this hard to believe. The trains of that time had a cab no deeper than a broom cupboard. The driver's seat flapped down from the wall to leave room to get in. There was little room for the knees of taller men! Try the 38TS simulator in the museum! I say this because you couldn't just install the controller, but all the gubbins underneath that it connected with, and I don't think there was room for that. Also, on auto-trains of the time, it got little use except for slow-speed shunt moves, so would not have provided much experience. This was fortunate in a way, as the first combined traction/brake controller, it wasn't very good. The deadman feature wasn't built in, so a separate vigilance button had also to be held down. Then the handle had to be lifted rather than depressed before it could be turned, an unnatural movement for drivers. The version fitted to C69 and later trains was much improved. Also the 1967TS on the Victoria Line were the first to provide a decent sized cab, and later designs have grown further. |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Aug 14, 2021 21:32:24 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car. I find this hard to believe. The trains of that time had a cab no deeper than a broom cupboard. The driver's seat flapped down from the wall to leave room to get in. There was little room for the knees of taller men! Try the 38TS simulator in the museum! I say this because you couldn't just install the controller, but all the gubbins underneath that it connected with, and I don't think there was room for that. Also, on auto-trains of the time, it got little use except for slow-speed shunt moves, so would not have provided much experience. This was fortunate in a way, as the first combined traction/brake controller, it wasn't very good. The deadman feature wasn't built in, so a separate vigilance button had also to be held down. Then the handle had to be lifted rather than depressed before it could be turned, an unnatural movement for drivers. The version fitted to C69 and later trains was much improved. Also the 1967TS on the Victoria Line were the first to provide a decent sized cab, and later designs have grown further. The point about small cabs is interesting, as many drivers who have driven 38/59/62 stocks as well as their replacements will say they prefer the former, partly because of being able to have windows or the offside door open, but more because of the ability to drive standing up. Something like a 92 or 95 stock is very nice if one’s body happens to fit the driving position exactly, however that driving position is very specific, so a lot of people find it quite uncomfortable, especially after several hours. I can count with one hand the number of drivers who drive these trains standing up, as it’s not easy to do, especially if right handed. ATO has at least meant people can pace around. It’s interesting how the “handle” design has varied over the years. Personally I find the S stock one awful, but then I’ve never driven one on a sustained basis so perhaps it’s just a case of getting used to it. 92, 95 and 96 stocks are pretty good in my view, but a lot of people don’t like them. A 92 stock handle is fine if you drive it from scratch, but odd if you’re used to 95 or 96 stock as the twist angle is subtly different. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 14, 2021 23:05:14 GMT
I can’t find reference to a prototype combined controller on the 5 units of 1960 Tube Stock that received modifications for ATO operation on the Hainault Loop. The only reference I can find affecting a signal Driving Motor car was the sealing off of the area between the saloon cab door and the first set of passenger doors so the equipment could be visible to engineers as referenced on Page 4 of the LURS article below. www.lurs.org.uk/articles12_htm_files/2012%2001%20The%2067s.pdf |
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neilw
now that's what I call a garden railway
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Post by neilw on Aug 15, 2021 8:19:05 GMT
Don’t recall seeing and never heard of a combined controller on 60TS. I remember well the car with the sectioned off bit, the windows were “whitewashed” like when you do decorating. I used to squint through the missed bits at the edges of the window
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Post by programmes1 on Aug 15, 2021 8:28:04 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car. I find this hard to believe. The trains of that time had a cab no deeper than a broom cupboard. The driver's seat flapped down from the wall to leave room to get in. There was little room for the knees of taller men! Try the 38TS simulator in the museum! I say this because you couldn't just install the controller, but all the gubbins underneath that it connected with, and I don't think there was room for that. Also, on auto-trains of the time, it got little use except for slow-speed shunt moves, so would not have provided much experience. This was fortunate in a way, as the first combined traction/brake controller, it wasn't very good. The deadman feature wasn't built in, so a separate vigilance button had also to be held down. Then the handle had to be lifted rather than depressed before it could be turned, an unnatural movement for drivers. The version fitted to C69 and later trains was much improved. Also the 1967TS on the Victoria Line were the first to provide a decent sized cab, and later designs have grown further. You are right the cabs were small compared to what there is now but I'm sure it was a 1938TS that had a trial controller I think it was before the 1960TS and I think there is a photo in Piers Connor's book on 1938TS so it had already been done although not like the controllers found today on 1967/1972/1973 stocks. I seem to remember that the 1967TS had a mushroom shaped button like you say a vigilance button which had to be pressed down. Just had a look at the 1938TS book by Piers and on page 76 there is a photo. |
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Post by programmes1 on Aug 15, 2021 8:29:08 GMT
I can’t find reference to a prototype combined controller on the 5 units of 1960 Tube Stock that received modifications for ATO operation on the Hainault Loop. The only reference I can find affecting a signal Driving Motor car was the sealing off of the area between the saloon cab door and the first set of passenger doors so the equipment could be visible to engineers as referenced on Page 4 of the LURS article below. www.lurs.org.uk/articles12_htm_files/2012%2001%20The%2067s.pdfI remember the car that was sectioned ran for some time I believe. |
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Post by fish7373 on Aug 15, 2021 14:42:39 GMT
I find this hard to believe. The trains of that time had a cab no deeper than a broom cupboard. The driver's seat flapped down from the wall to leave room to get in. There was little room for the knees of taller men! Try the 38TS simulator in the museum! I say this because you couldn't just install the controller, but all the gubbins underneath that it connected with, and I don't think there was room for that. Also, on auto-trains of the time, it got little use except for slow-speed shunt moves, so would not have provided much experience. This was fortunate in a way, as the first combined traction/brake controller, it wasn't very good. The deadman feature wasn't built in, so a separate vigilance button had also to be held down. Then the handle had to be lifted rather than depressed before it could be turned, an unnatural movement for drivers. The version fitted to C69 and later trains was much improved. Also the 1967TS on the Victoria Line were the first to provide a decent sized cab, and later designs have grown further. You are right the cabs were small compared to what there is now but I'm sure it was a 1938TS that had a trial controller I think it was before the 1960TS and I think there is a photo in Piers Connor's book on 1938TS so it had already been done although not like the controllers found today on 1967/1972/1973 stocks. I seem to remember that the 1967TS had a mushroom shaped button like you say a vigilance button which had to be pressed down. Just had a look at the 1938TS book by Piers and on page 76 there is a photo. Hi is this the button in photo hosting.photobucket.com/images/p551/kevin_fisher5/Inked44033504075_d6218bdaab_h_LI.jpg![]() |
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Post by bigvern on Aug 15, 2021 15:17:07 GMT
In addition the hinged side cab doors were removed and infilled with a droplight window then being fitted, the Guards Panels were removed and Door controllers were fitted on the cab backwall position these were Allen West door controllers with a push button in the handle which had to be pushed in to lift the handle for the doors to open, the ATO start buttons were fitted below the cab window on the driver's side.
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Post by jimbo on Aug 16, 2021 2:39:42 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car. TIA The July 2020 Underground News had a 36 page feature marking the first 60 years of the 1960TS (back-issues available for sale from LURS). There is a single sentence about your query: After its conversion to ATO (05.04.64), DM 3908 was fitted with a combined Traction/Brake controller, but this was removed after a short while. I can only think that it was operated from a standing position, occupying any remaining knee space! |
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Post by jimbo on Aug 19, 2021 20:55:49 GMT
You are right the cabs were small compared to what there is now but I'm sure it was a 1938TS that had a trial controller I think it was before the 1960TS and I think there is a photo in Piers Connor's book on 1938TS so it had already been done although not like the controllers found today on 1967/1972/1973 stocks. I seem to remember that the 1967TS had a mushroom shaped button like you say a vigilance button which had to be pressed down. Just had a look at the 1938TS book by Piers and on page 76 there is a photo. Hi is this the button in photo hosting.photobucket.com/images/p551/kevin_fisher5/Inked44033504075_d6218bdaab_h_LI.jpg![]() Yes, that must be it! It has a collar all around so must be pressed down, and not just lent across. |
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towerman
My status is now now widower
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Post by towerman on Aug 20, 2021 12:14:23 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car. TIA 3908 unit had the CTBCs,3902 was the FACT train & then chopper control unit,3904 was fitted with Westcode brake as a test bed for the 73TS. |
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towerman
My status is now now widower
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Post by towerman on Aug 20, 2021 14:05:07 GMT
Also 3910 unit was never converted to ATO.It ran in the 60s as a rheostatic brake test train then the motor cars(3910/11)were used for the Track Recording Train.
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Post by jimbo on Aug 20, 2021 19:59:40 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car. TIA 3908 unit had the CTBCs,3902 was the FACT train & then chopper control unit,3904 was fitted with Westcode brake as a test bed for the 73TS. Why do they seem to use the even-numbered cars for trials? |
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 20, 2021 22:10:00 GMT
I'm wondering how many of these trains actually passed the remaining BR goods trains which ran until the mid 1960s and passenger trains which ran until 1970?
Or maybe the BR trains ran at such obscure hours that the Hainault - Woodford shuttle was not in operation at the same time as them?
Certainly in the Woodford area the Class 105 diesel multiple unit trains travelled on tracks which were equipped for automatically driven trains, both 1960 and 1967 tube stocks.
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Post by programmes1 on Aug 21, 2021 8:22:17 GMT
You are right the cabs were small compared to what there is now but I'm sure it was a 1938TS that had a trial controller I think it was before the 1960TS and I think there is a photo in Piers Connor's book on 1938TS so it had already been done although not like the controllers found today on 1967/1972/1973 stocks. I seem to remember that the 1967TS had a mushroom shaped button like you say a vigilance button which had to be pressed down. Just had a look at the 1938TS book by Piers and on page 76 there is a photo. Hi is this the button in photo hosting.photobucket.com/images/p551/kevin_fisher5/Inked44033504075_d6218bdaab_h_LI.jpg![]() That is the button I think the driver also had to pull up a slow manual flag of the off side of the cab. |
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Post by programmes1 on Aug 21, 2021 8:23:23 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car. TIA The July 2020 Underground News had a 36 page feature marking the first 60 years of the 1960TS (back-issues available for sale from LURS). There is a single sentence about your query: After its conversion to ATO (05.04.64), DM 3908 was fitted with a combined Traction/Brake controller, but this was removed after a short while. I can only think that it was operated from a standing position, occupying any remaining knee space! Thanks for this I must try to obtain a copy as it's too new to be on the LURS historical archive. |
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Post by programmes1 on Aug 21, 2021 8:24:21 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car. TIA 3908 unit had the CTBCs,3902 was the FACT train & then chopper control unit,3904 was fitted with Westcode brake as a test bed for the 73TS. Towerman thanks. |
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towerman
My status is now now widower
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Post by towerman on Aug 27, 2021 11:20:26 GMT
No problem,worked on them for 15 years in the 70s & 80s.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 27, 2021 16:45:09 GMT
Why do they seem to use the even-numbered cars for trials? They don't - the numbers quoted are for the units, and both DMs would have been adapted. LU units are usually identified by the lowest-numbered car in the unit - usually (if not always) a Driving Motor. The first 1960 stock unit was formed 3900-trailers-3901, with the others following on, so they were each known by the (lower) even-numbered DM, 3900,3902,3904 etc. They were originally numbered in the 30xx range, but renumbered in the 39xx range to make way for the 1967 stock (which used a different convention, with the two DMs in each unit numbered 30xx and 31xx, so that all the cars in each unit had the same last two digits instead of an odd/even pair) The original (standard stock) trailers used in the 1960 stock were each numbered 4xxx, corresponding to the adjacent 3xxx DM. The later 1938 stock trailers were given numbers in the 492x range. |
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towerman
My status is now now widower
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Post by towerman on Sept 3, 2021 11:17:51 GMT
Hoping someone can help been doing some research and when this stock was being made ready for ATO on the Hainault branch one of the motor cars had a prototype combined controller now was this correct and if so which car. TIA 3908 unit had the CTBCs,3902 was the FACT train & then chopper control unit,3904 was fitted with Westcode brake as a test bed for the 73TS. As an aside back in the mid 60s 3908 didn't have an auto driver box under the seat,all the electronic gubbins was on racks between the cab & the fist pair of doors,the passenger windows were whited out. |
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neilw
now that's what I call a garden railway
Posts: 284
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Post by neilw on Sept 3, 2021 15:34:40 GMT
I remember peering into it at Grange Hill, are there any pictures of it in this condition?
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towerman
My status is now now widower
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Post by towerman on Sept 10, 2021 11:41:30 GMT
Don't know,you could always enquire at The Transport Museum.
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