Full Service Reinstatement

[noddymac]

Starting Monday, the Walbrook entrance to the Waterloo & City line will be reopening for the peak hours only.

I was informed on Tuesday that there’s a chance that the Waterloo & City will go back to normal services from October. Has anybody else heard this?

[Dstock7080]

Sept 4, 2021 1:24:58 GMT noddymac said:

I was informed on Tuesday that there’s a chance that the Waterloo & City will go back to normal services from October. Has anybody else heard this?

The 4-train M-F all-day Timetable Notice 176/21 is dated 6 September 2021 but is awaiting a start date.

[aslefshrugged]

There just aren't enough drivers at Leytonstone or at the other depots to expand the W&C service. I was spare on Monday, we were running a Saturday service and I ended up covering a Hainault duty.

[davidr1986]

Sept 4, 2021 1:24:58 GMT noddymac said:

I was informed on Tuesday that there’s a chance that the Waterloo & City will go back to normal services from October. Has anybody else heard this?

I think I heard from someone that the reduced service will be in use until November.


As always, it'll depend on driver availability for the Central line. A 4 train service on the W&C will require 4 drivers (Obviously), plus how many are required for 'stepping back' at Waterloo (and possibly Bank). Plus they need to account for shifts and meal breaks

[aslefshrugged]

The current morning and evening "peak" 3 train service requires 14 drivers from Leytonstone, 6 running and 1 spare duties for each peak

The full pre-pandemic weekday 5 train service required 26 drivers, 21 running turns and 5 spares

---

I've just been informed that tonight there is a joint retirement party for 10 Hainault TOps who have retired during the last two months. Guess we're going to be covering a lot more Hainault duties in future

[jimbo]

The 5th train will be going through the CLIP process in Waterloo depot for the rest of the year at least, so full service will be some time yet.

[noddymac]

I have heard many rumblings that a Train Op campaign is coming any day now! So that will certainly help boost some numbers up! I’m gonna go for it myself, so could even end up being one of those drivers if I’m lucky enough.

Let’s see what happens. Customers are constantly asking for the Waterloo & City whilst it’s shut.

[aslefshrugged]

The biggest problem is training.

For starters with all the retirements we've had over the last 18 months we don't have as many Instructor Operators as we did plus there are others who have decided they no longer want to be IOPs as they don't want to spend a whole shift sharing a cab with a trainee.  Another problem is that as far as I'm aware training is still being done in "bubbles"; a specific IOp and a specific trainee together for the whole 2 months of road/route training with regular Covid testing rather than pre-Covid training where you would spend a week with one IOp then the next week with another. Under the current system if an IOp is off sick or goes on annual leave then the trainee has to wait until the IOp comes back or they can be assigned another IOp to form a new "bubble".

All the talk about reviewing pensions has got even more people thinking it might be time to call it a day (myself included) About 20% of Tube workers are over 55 and I suspect that for TOps its higher

As for the first month of training how many people could you have in a training room? When I trained in 2002 we had 24, I don't that would be allowed under the current conditions

The new timetables coming in might reduce some off peak services and cut the number of TOps needed but otherwise its going to be years before we get the numbers back

[Colin]

At the risk of taking this thread on a bit of a drift off topic.....

Sept 7, 2021 1:29:27 GMT noddymac said:

I have heard many rumblings that a Train Op campaign is coming any day now!

I'm surprised but then again I'm not surprised as this is typical of LU.

We have only just finished training all those that were sent back part way through their training when Covid hit. We are now working our way through the night tuber's that have gone full time. Once they're done, there must already be a waiting list of people that were due to start their training from around March 2020 that we've not had enter the training system yet.

And they're starting another recruiting campaign? We're not even up to full speed on trains training and won't be for a while yet (see below for more on this point). It can only be to populate a list and it will be some time before anyone on that list get's called up for training.

The reason I say this is typical of LU is that I'm still waiting to finish the selection process for promotion to line controller. like everything it's been stalled since Covid arrived. I've now been told that I won't be progressed anytime soon as the business needs me in my current role; in the mean time they're apparently going to run a secondment campaign for line controller. Promotions etc is an utter mess at the moment.

Sept 7, 2021 8:25:18 GMT aslefshrugged said:

The biggest problem is training.

For starters with all the retirements we've had over the last 18 months we don't have as many Instructor Operators as we did plus there are others who have decided they no longer want to be IOPs as they don't want to spend a whole shift sharing a cab with a trainee.  Another problem is that as far as I'm aware training is still being done in "bubbles"; a specific IOp and a specific trainee together for the whole 2 months of road/route training with regular Covid testing rather than pre-Covid training where you would spend a week with one IOp then the next week with another. Under the current system if an IOp is off sick or goes on annual leave then the trainee has to wait until the IOp comes back or they can be assigned another IOp to form a new "bubble".

Broadly speaking you're right, but I'd like to add a bit more meat to explain the difficulties involved....

We have to form a "bubble" by undergoing a PCR Covid test and cannot be in a train cab together till we get a negative result - that's essentially two training days lost though we can do classroom work or hiking round depots/sidings as we can maintain social distancing. Once the "bubble is formed" we have to carry out temperature checks every day when booking on and both must wear face masks in the train cab. Weekly PCR testing continues to maintain the bubble - those tests must be plus or minus one day from the last weekly test and are done at specific central London locations so that eats into training time too.

On the District we try to plan things around the I/O's annual leave so rolling stock, CBTC and Network Rail training can all be done together whilst the I/O is on leave for example. If two I/O's are involved, we'll try and arrange the PCR tests for the second bubble to occur the week before they get together - an example of this might be getting the trainee to have their PCR test at Hammersmith during their break whilst stock training as the rooms are literally next to each other. Of course it's not always possible to be this clever and so things can become a pain; for example if the stock training is at Upminster the PCR test can't be done till the following Monday - more training time lost!

We are also a number of I/O's down on the District for various reasons - probably around ten or twelve out of a total of 50 on the line, so training is certainly happening at a slower pace. Overall I'd suggest we're currently training at about 50% (or just under) of our normal rate pre Covid by the time you factor in annual leave etc.

Our problems don't end there though. All these recent issues with the "ping demic", service's being curtailed early due to lack of control staff and general delays due to train cancellations are making training extremely challenging as we can't get all the required moves done. Last week I had three midday stablers reformed on me whilst trying to complete a stabling move into Ealing Common depot. A morning starter from Upminster depot was cancelled which messed up the planned training day and last night we nearly missed out on some planned moves at Parsons Green as all the early stablers had been reformed & cancelled leaving us with no spare train to use.

Another tactic pre covid might be I/O's and trainee's using the same train to knock out some moves but because we must maintain our own bubbles only in a train cab we can't even do that - so if an I/O clashes plans with another, one must give way - more training time potentially lost!

So yeah, getting drivers trained is an uphill battle at the moment....

[johnlinford]

The bubbling system seems very short sighted to come up with these problems - on the TV production I'm on we have a close contact cohort of around 80 cast and crew, each tested three times a week. We try and minimise close contact as much as possible but there is necessarily sharing of vehicles etc. I am surprised there can't be a wider trainer/trainee testing bubble to resolve these shortages.

[35b]

Sept 7, 2021 19:01:26 GMT johnlinford said:

The bubbling system seems very short sighted to come up with these problems - on the TV production I'm on we have a close contact cohort of around 80 cast and crew, each tested three times a week. We try and minimise close contact as much as possible but there is necessarily sharing of vehicles etc. I am surprised there can't be a wider trainer/trainee testing bubble to resolve these shortages.

Knowing the effect 1 case had on my son's bubble at school in July, I can see why limiting the size of bubbles might be considered prudent.  Once the bubble goes into isolation, that is everyone in that bubble.

[Colin]

Sept 7, 2021 19:01:26 GMT johnlinford said:

The bubbling system seems very short sighted to come up with these problems >>>snip<<< I am surprised there can't be a wider trainer/trainee testing bubble to resolve these shortages.

As 35b suggests, smaller bubbles are easier to manage.

Also, not every trainee is at the same stage of training and some may have extra leave built in to cater for previously booked engagements etc. Every trainee also has time away from their I/O’s for things like stock training so the bubble system would become ever more complicated to manage.

The other factor, which can be a bone of contention, is the Unions. They have been involved in creating the current regime and continue to have a voice regarding any changes etc.

[brigham]

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Shortage of drivers in the road transport industry? Boost driver training as a priority.

Shortage of drivers on LU? Discuss why driver training can't be boosted...

[Colin]

If only it was that simple.

HGV & PSV driver training is usually a week long course that is relatively straightforward in nature.

To compare that to a Train Operators course which is between 10 & 16 weeks (depending on allocated line) and involves multiple subjects delivered in various locations by various trainers.......the two are about as comparable as chalk & cheese.

[aslefshrugged]

Sept 8, 2021 7:58:47 GMT brigham said:

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Shortage of drivers in the road transport industry? Boost driver training as a priority.

Shortage of drivers on LU? Discuss why driver training can't be boosted...

Half of driver training is done with an Instructor Operator and a trainee on a train in passenger service so they can only train as many new drivers as there are IOps available.

As I mentioned (and confirmed by Colin) there are fewer IOps now than there were pre-Covid so obviously to "boost" driver training they need more IOps and there are adverts for new IOps at every depot.

I have no idea how long IOp training takes, how many of my colleagues have responded to the adverts or how many will meet the grade but a couple of weeks ago I overheard two of the IOps at Leytonstone discussing the shortage and they weren't optimistic.

For the record I have absolutely no intention of becoming an IOp, its boring driving a train so watching someone driving a train must be doubly boring.

[Colin]

Sept 8, 2021 9:49:21 GMT aslefshrugged said:

I have absolutely no intention of becoming an IOp, its boring driving a train so watching someone driving a train must be doubly boring.

Quite the opposite actually.

Time passes by much more quickly as you have someone to talk to, and because you help the trainee's improve their knowledge you're own knowledge is improved too. Also, as the I/O it's your licence on the line so if anything you are paying more attention than might otherwise be the case if its just yourself in the cab.

The only draw back is you don't get to choose who your trainee is and some are harder work than others.

[aslefshrugged]

Sept 8, 2021 11:09:05 GMT Colin said:

Sept 8, 2021 9:49:21 GMT aslefshrugged said:

I have absolutely no intention of becoming an IOp, its boring driving a train so watching someone driving a train must be doubly boring.

Quite the opposite actually.

Time passes by much more quickly as you have someone to talk to, and because you help the trainee's improve their knowledge you're own knowledge is improved too. Also, as the I/O it's your licence on the line so if anything you are paying more attention than might otherwise be the case if its just yourself in the cab.

The only draw back is you don't get to choose who your trainee is and some are harder work than others.

I can't say that the prospect of having someone else to talk to is that attractive, I've had too many occasions when I've allowed a member of staff to ride in the cab and regretted it after a few stations so the idea that I'd have to spend several weeks with someone sounds ghastly.

Also I seem to recall that IOps have to stick to the roster or am I mistaken.  I have no desire to do earlies again and they wouldn't fit into my routine

[Colin]

Sept 9, 2021 7:37:56 GMT aslefshrugged said:

Also I seem to recall that IOps have to stick to the roster or am I mistaken.

Nope, I/O's are free to follow the roster or mafia pattern of their choice.

That being said, there is of course an expectation that you'll be prepared to work any shift in order to get training done.

So if for example you're an early turn fan, when you have a trainee there is an expectation you'll do some lates here and there if required. That said, sometimes its possible to find an opposite number on the late turns and you simply swap trainee's for a week or two - well we could at least do that pre pandemic.

[superteacher]

We have scrapped bubbles in schools, so the fact that they are still being used on TFL is astounding. For 99% of people, Covid is no worse than a bad cold / flu, and even more so for the double-jabbed.

We need to be doing everything within our powers to get life back to normal, which includes being able to run full-strength train services.

[rincew1nd]

Sept 19, 2021 10:52:08 GMT superteacher said:

We have scrapped bubbles in schools, so the fact that they are still being used on TFL is astounding. For 99% of people, Covid is no worse than a bad cold / flu, and even more so for the double-jabbed.

We need to be doing everything within our powers to get life back to normal, which includes being able to run full-strength train services.

Given that there is no need for social distancing within my Healthcare team as we are all issued with medical grade face coverings, it does seem odd that TfL can't adopt a similar position for their staff. The medical supply chain is now sufficiently robust that I'm sure it could cope with extra demand from the transport sector.

It is worth remembering that whilst covid is now becoming "just flu", flu kills tens of thousands of people a year. Free flu jabs are available to everyone in England over 50 and those in at risk groups; available from your GP or Community Pharmacy.

[aslefshrugged]

The "bubble" training system was introduced after negotiations between management and the unions' senior Health & Safety reps, any changes would have to be negotiated.  ASLEF recently issued a reminder that we still aren't allowed to have anyone in the cab unless we are in an IOp/trainee bubble or in extreme circumstances.  If we need a train technician we are still supposed to get out the cab while they do their thing.

Around 20% of LU staff are aged 55 or over and while my experience is limited to the Central Line most of our IOps would certainly fall within that age range

Hospital admissions have been climbing for about a month and the effects of "long Covid" are yet unknown

[aslefshrugged]

ASLEF rep at Leytonstone confirms Waterloo & City returning to full weekday service from Monday 22 November, four trains with one for CLIP, no Saturday service.

[jimbo]

Does this mean demand is climbing towards normal now? Available drivers also?

[aslefshrugged]

Don't know about demand as I've not been down there since it reopened. Central Line will switch to WTT70 on Sunday 20th November, I've not seen the timetable but I guess they've juggled around with the off peak service to ensure they have enough drivers to cover the W&C and Night Tube.

[DWS]

Before the covid 19 shutdown the Waterloo and City line needed 5 trains in service at peak times, so with only 4 trains available the timetable must be cut to suit this.

[Dstock7080]

TTN176/21 has a new start date Mon 22 November 2021:

This Timetable Notice reinstates a full traffic day service on the Waterloo & City line on Mondays to Fridays only.
The line will remain closed at weekends and Bank Holidays. A train service is provided 06.00-00.30, using a maximum of 4 trains.
The train service will be revised as follows:-
During both peak periods a 4-train service will operate, providing a 3¼min interval.
During the midday off peak period a 3-train service will operate, providing a 5min interval.
After 21.30 a 3-train service will operate, providing a 6min interval

[jimbo]

That ties in with Central Line night tube restart at end of that week, so new crew rosters.

[aslefshrugged]

The new Leytonstone rosters were on display when I booked on Friday, they might have been there Thursday but I was on Rest Day. I checked the Night Tube duties but didn't pay much attention to the W&C

I don't know why they don't shut down at 22:00 like they did pre-September 2013 (if memory serves)

[plasmid]

Today was the first day I noticed T/Ops changing over at Bank which meant quicker turn-around times. I can also see the W&C line is currently open which suggests it has now fully re-opened. I didn't notice this on Tuesday 23rd so must've been very recent.

[Dstock7080]

Nov 25, 2021 20:18:25 GMT plasmid said:

Today was the first day I noticed T/Ops changing over at Bank which meant quicker turn-around times. I can also see the W&C line is currently open which suggests it has now fully re-opened. I didn't notice this on Tuesday 23rd so must've been very recent.

As posted above, from Monday 22 November