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Post by taylor on Oct 2, 2021 15:11:33 GMT
If there’s another thread on this, please forgive this duplication.
What is a ticket legally in such an announcement? Many will assume to know but where is this phrase and its implications, when the service cannot be provided, defined in the conditions of carriage?
We’ve had numerous causes for disrupted service over the summer e.g., planned engineering work, flooding, broken signals, someone on the track and lack of staff, but let’s try a couple of simple examples to fathom out the revenue implications for the less than super savvy, chance Underground user. Between Tower Hill and Earls Court the District Line has been closed and its and Circle Line trains have been curtailed several times during the past few months and Sloane Square and St James’s Park stations have been shuttered, i.e., you couldn’t buy a ticket, even if you’d wanted to.
Also, as the routes were well served by London Bus routes, there were no comprehensive railway replacement bus services.
Journey 1 – Sloane Square to Parsons Green. Do I tell the driver of the C1 bus to Earls Court, where I’m meeting my friend, that I’m not touching in due to the District Line closure? How is revenue protected? Or do I, like the passenger behind me, who touches in, take the 11 or 211 to Fulham Broadway but refuse to touch in?
Journey 2 – Sloane Square to St. James’s Park. Should I in this case just tell the 11 or 211 that I couldn’t buy a ticket and insist on boarding?
I know this could sound obtuse, but it needs clarifying
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Tom
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Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Oct 2, 2021 15:51:09 GMT
I might be wrong, but doesn't such an announcement only really apply to those who have bought point to point Underground-only tickets such as (for example) a single from Mansion House to Parsons Green?
If you have an Oyster Card, then you should tap in on the bus as normal.
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Post by elsombernie on Oct 2, 2021 17:39:43 GMT
When a request to accept tickets is issued to buses, CentreComm issue a PrePay number for drivers to enter into the ticket machine.
If I remember correctly, this was set up when Pay as You Go was first introduced, as this type of issue only affects Pay as You Go (and now cashless) card holders.
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Post by Chris L on Oct 2, 2021 18:52:40 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 2, 2021 20:48:42 GMT
Hmm, please be aware though that if you are making a point to point journey and are asked to travel by bus instead (for the entire journey) then you will almost certainly end up paying a cheaper fare on the bus than the train!
The only possible exception to this is for people with railcard discounts (on Oystercards) which only apply to train travel - not to bus travel.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 3, 2021 7:25:25 GMT
Hmm, please be aware though that if you are making a point to point journey and are asked to travel by bus instead (for the entire journey) then you will almost certainly end up paying a cheaper fare on the bus than the train! The only possible exception to this is for people with railcard discounts (on Oystercards) which only apply to train travel - not to bus travel. Unlikely though - very few rail fares, even when discounted, would be less than £1.55. A more likely outcome is that you might end up paying for a bus fare as well as a train fare if you have to complete your journey by bus, or even paying for a second train fare as well if you use a bus to bridge a gap in train services. |
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Tom
Administrator
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Post by Tom on Oct 3, 2021 13:45:06 GMT
When writing my earlier post about a point to point journey, I was assuming the hypothetical passenger had a paper ticket, so they wouldn't be paying twice but merely showing their underground ticket when boarding the bus.
An individual travelling with pay as you go would be charged twice, once for the train journey and once for the bus, but then their fares would be capped once they reach the limit for the daily cap to apply.
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 4, 2021 9:43:01 GMT
Hmm, please be aware though that if you are making a point to point journey and are asked to travel by bus instead (for the entire journey) then you will almost certainly end up paying a cheaper fare on the bus than the train! The only possible exception to this is for people with railcard discounts (on Oystercards) which only apply to train travel - not to bus travel. Unlikely though - very few rail fares, even when discounted, would be less than £1.55. A more likely outcome is that you might end up paying for a bus fare as well as a train fare if you have to complete your journey by bus, or even paying for a second train fare as well if you use a bus to bridge a gap in train services. Right now if I used my personalised Oystercard which has a Senior Railcard loaded on it I will be charged just one guinea (ie: £1.05) for an off-peak journey that does not include zone 1. For instance, for me to go to from Gants Hill to Westfield Stratford. However, peak fares are not discounted - not even in the evening peak, which I suspect is a new 'post covid' thing because I feel sure that discounted fares were charged in the afternoon peaks prior to the covid era. Returning to the topic of ticket acceptance, as I understand it in some circumstances *Baker Street is an accepted 'London Terminal' for mainline railway tickets to London from some locations to the north of London. Because of the very limited direct 'reasonable' connections nowadays with the routes out of Euston it is unlikely that a 'reasonable' route could be devised but if (for instance) the Croxley Link had been build and disruption meant that all trains had to terminate at Watford Junction (and the Overground dc tracks were also closed) then passengers could legitimately find themselves on a Met train to Baker Street as a 'rail replacement' service. *This dates from years ago when Met trains went to Aylesbury and Marylebone trains went to Manchester. |
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Post by taylor on Oct 4, 2021 17:25:42 GMT
So, from the above it seems that TfL implies that only paper tickets such as NR Aylesbury to London Termini or LUL pink return 'halves', are accepted for entitlement to travel on "reasonable routes" without paying for the bus segment, and that all other passengers, PAYG, (on contactless credit / debit / Oyster cards), are assumed to know they could be charged extra (bus journey to point of railway resumption) and then additionally the railway fare. With the plethora of service disruptions highlighted above, it would appear to be the case that such passengers, by blithely touching in on the bus and then at the railway service resumption point, are being deliberately cherged more by TfL for an inferior service.
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Post by elsombernie on Oct 4, 2021 18:00:01 GMT
No, because the ticket machine on the bus should have had the relevant PrePay code entered.
I don't now exactly how this works (this was more Snoggle's (RIP) area of knowledge), but if you've touched in correctly, and are following a reasonable route for the closure, there shouldn't be an issue.
However, if you *are* incorrectly charged, although inconvenient, you should be able to claim any overpayment back.
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Post by Chris L on Oct 4, 2021 18:26:18 GMT
No, because the ticket machine on the bus should have had the relevant PrePay code entered. I don't now exactly how this works (this was more Snoggle's (RIP) area of knowledge), but if you've touched in correctly, and are following a reasonable route for the closure, there shouldn't be an issue. However, if you *are* incorrectly charged, although inconvenient, you should be able to claim any overpayment back. As I posted up the thread the Network Management Control Centre post an entry on a log. This is a current entry which includes the prepay code: TfL Rail ticket holders request 4th October at 1916hrs Ticket holders to be accepted Hayes & Harlington to Slough. This is due to defective track at Southall. Prepay 522 |
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Post by taylor on Oct 4, 2021 18:56:24 GMT
No, because the ticket machine on the bus should have had the relevant PrePay code entered. I don't now exactly how this works (this was more Snoggle's (RIP) area of knowledge), but if you've touched in correctly, and are following a reasonable route for the closure, there shouldn't be an issue. However, if you *are* incorrectly charged, although inconvenient, you should be able to claim any overpayment back. Thanks for that clarification, but how out of five passengers boarding the C1 at Victoria for Earls Court, does the system know that one is on his or her way to Fulham Broadway and the system needs to look up the special prepaid code. I have never heard an announcement telling non-savvy passengers to tell the driver of their intended destination due a to disrupted service. ‘Paper Tickets’ has been answered, but PAYG not. Put another way, how does the system differentiate between a passenger whose journey was disrupted, as described and the one who deliberately intended to use the bus for part of the total journey? Or is there a fee-adjusted OSI interchange between bus and train that I’m not aware of? |
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Post by Chris L on Oct 4, 2021 19:29:19 GMT
No, because the ticket machine on the bus should have had the relevant PrePay code entered. I don't now exactly how this works (this was more Snoggle's (RIP) area of knowledge), but if you've touched in correctly, and are following a reasonable route for the closure, there shouldn't be an issue. However, if you *are* incorrectly charged, although inconvenient, you should be able to claim any overpayment back. Thanks for that clarification, but how out of five passengers boarding the C1 at Victoria for Earls Court, does the system know that one is on his or her way to Fulham Broadway and the system needs to look up the special prepaid code. I have never heard an announcement telling non-savvy passengers to tell the driver of their intended destination due a to disrupted service. ‘Paper Tickets’ has been answered, but PAYG not. Put another way, how does the system differentiate between a passenger whose journey was disrupted, as described and the one who deliberately intended to use the bus for part of the total journey? Or is there a fee-adjusted OSI interchange between bus and train that I’m not aware of? As buses are flat fare I imagine a bit of cross company accounting goes on and the destination doesn't matter. I suspect the driver inputs the code on the ticket machine for each rail passenger boarding their bus. |
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Post by elsombernie on Oct 4, 2021 19:39:24 GMT
As I said in my original answer, this ONLY affects PAYG/contactless cards.
The bus driver only inputs the code once. I don't know how long the code stays valid on the ticket machine or if it needs to be re-entered if there's a driver change at any time.
If you are using a zonal travelcard, it's irrelevant.
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Post by elsombernie on Oct 4, 2021 19:58:41 GMT
From the London Buses Big Red Book for bus drivers:
Tube, DLR and rail-only tickets (either printed or
handwritten) are not usually accepted on the London
bus network.
You may have to accept these tickets when there is
disruption on Tube, rail or DLR services. If this is the case,
you will be told by NMCC over your radio and given a
three-digit resolution number.
<snip>
What to do with a resolution number
This is used to prevent customers from being overcharged
when there is disruption on Tube, rail or DLR services.
On your ETM, press the
(ENTER) button once.
• Select ‘End Journey’ and sign on to the ticket
machine again
• As you sign on, ‘LUL Resolution?’ will come up on the
screen. Press the ‘up’ arrow to select ‘Y’
• Type in the resolution number when the screen
says ‘LUL No’
• Until usual services have resumed, answer ‘Y’ to
‘LUL Resolution?’ when you sign on to the ticket
machine for your next trip
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 5, 2021 9:28:26 GMT
No, because the ticket machine on the bus should have had the relevant PrePay code entered. I don't now exactly how this works (this was more Snoggle's (RIP) area of knowledge), but if you've touched in correctly, and are following a reasonable route for the closure, there shouldn't be an issue. However, if you *are* incorrectly charged, although inconvenient, you should be able to claim any overpayment back. Thanks for that clarification, but how out of five passengers boarding the C1 at Victoria for Earls Court, does the system know that one is on his or her way to Fulham Broadway and the system needs to look up the special prepaid code. I have never heard an announcement telling non-savvy passengers to tell the driver of their intended destination due a to disrupted service. ‘Paper Tickets’ has been answered, but PAYG not. Put another way, how does the system differentiate between a passenger whose journey was disrupted, as described and the one who deliberately intended to use the bus for part of the total journey? Or is there a fee-adjusted OSI interchange between bus and train that I’m not aware of? Frome Elsomberrie's reply below, it seems the system can't differentiate, so |I would guess everyone who has recently touched out at an affected tube station gets a free bus ride, whether they are entitled to one or not. |
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Post by taylor on Oct 7, 2021 9:44:15 GMT
Thanks for that clarification, but how out of five passengers boarding the C1 at Victoria for Earls Court, does the system know that one is on his or her way to Fulham Broadway and the system needs to look up the special prepaid code. I have never heard an announcement telling non-savvy passengers to tell the driver of their intended destination due a to disrupted service. ‘Paper Tickets’ has been answered, but PAYG not. Put another way, how does the system differentiate between a passenger whose journey was disrupted, as described and the one who deliberately intended to use the bus for part of the total journey? Or is there a fee-adjusted OSI interchange between bus and train that I’m not aware of? Frome Elsomberrie's reply below, it seems the system can't differentiate, so |I would guess everyone who has recently touched out at an affected tube station gets a free bus ride, whether they are entitled to one or not. And would those who commence their journeys by bus be credited with a free bus ride on touching in at the first "nor-disrupted" station? That would mean all passengers alighting say at Earls Court from all bus routes contiguous with sections of disrupted District Line, e.g. Monday morning when parts of the line (Gloucester Road) were closed due to heavy rainfall, being credited. Unless I'm missing something, we still don't have an answer; and passengers risk being charged for a bus ride plus a train ride £3.25 peak / £3.05 off-peak instead of an end-to-end train ride. £2.40 peak/off peak for a journey from Gloucester Road to Fulham Broadway. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Oct 7, 2021 11:01:51 GMT
Given that pre-pay codes (and the clue really is in the name) have existed since the earliest days of Oyster, I think we can fairly safely make the assumption that passengers are not overcharged for using alternative routes - it is reasonable to expect much more outrage across the Internet if that were the case.
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