Operators with sticks

[cobolot5]

I thought I may have been seeing things, but in the last few weeks waiting in platforms I've seen a few drivers. With a pronged device almost like a litter picker operating a train. So they can press the door open and close buttons and stop start without leaning forward. Is this something occupational health have prescribed or is this just some drivers?

[brigham]

It's the driver shortage.
Some operators may have been transferred over from the equivalent grade in Street Cleansing.

[punkman]

Very much not prescribed, but as well as to avoid keep leaning forward it helps preserve well manicured nails, so I'm told! Apparently a potato masher with the end plate removed does the job. I'm not sure what the official line is regarding their usage is though.

[class411]

I can't see why it would be a problem unless it is trying to defeat some safety interlock. (i.e. the driver can't do this because s/he can't reach both these buttons at the same time).

And provided they are not trying to use the stick to operate the brake!

[hobbayne]

Its pretty much not a company issue, but local management turn a blind eye to them. It saves your back from aching with the constant leaning forward and back while having to operate the door controls while you check the monitors.
I use one myself, it makes life easier.

[rincew1nd]

I thought 'ATO Start' and 'door open' required you to press two buttons as a safety thing to prevent accidental operation. If this is so, then surely using a 'defeat device' presents a safety risk and thus to my mind is a disciplinary issue?

[hobbayne]

Nov 11, 2021 12:49:51 GMT rincew1nd said:

I thought 'ATO Start' and 'door open' required you to press two buttons as a safety thing to prevent accidental operation. If this is so, then surely using a 'defeat device' presents a safety risk and thus to my mind is a disciplinary issue?

No. You still require two buttons to operate the train doors. Using this device does not defeat this method.

There is no risk of accidental operation unless you overide the safety system. Then it requires the driver to operate the bulkhead buttons manually, so this device would not be any use.

[class411]

Nov 11, 2021 12:49:51 GMT rincew1nd said:

I thought 'ATO Start' and 'door open' required you to press two buttons as a safety thing to prevent accidental operation. If this is so, then surely using a 'defeat device' presents a safety risk and thus to my mind is a disciplinary issue?

Well, holding something out in front of you whilst lining up two prongs to operate a pair of buttons is hardly likely to happen by accident, so is probably even less of a risk.

Of course, that does not mean that it's within the rules.

[AndrewS]

You could say that a 2-pronged stick is no more a "defeat device" than a hand with 2 fingers is; as class411 notes, it would be different if it allowed something to be done which would be impossible without the device. The need to press them both at once reduces the risk of activation by something accidentally being dropped on a single button, and using the device doesn't change that. There's perhaps also a perception that pressing 2 buttons requires more conscious thought than a single button does, but it still becomes automatic after a while as was obvious when you could watch guards doing it.

[jamesb]

Does leaning forward to reach the door close buttons also result in the eyes moving closer to the OPO CCTV, or draw attention to them? If so, could using a stick make it more likely to miss something on the cameras?

[slugabed]

Isn't the fact that using a stick is "normal" an indictment of the ergonomic design of the controls...which is,in itself,a safety issue...?

[class411]

Nov 11, 2021 15:49:18 GMT jamesb said:

Does leaning forward to reach the door close buttons also result in the eyes moving closer to the OPO CCTV, or draw attention to them? If so, could using a stick make it more likely to miss something on the cameras?

Well, the CCTV should be placed at the position where it is most comfortable for the driver in his/her normal sitting position, rather than at a position that they only occupy momentarily as they press the buttons.

[superteacher]

Some “long arm” tactics may solve the problem!
The 1992 stock was the first attempt at a truly modern driving cab, and was a lot better than the first ATO stock (1967), which had the start buttons behind the driver.

[Dstock7080]

Nov 13, 2021 10:28:47 GMT superteacher said:

Some “long arm” tactics may solve the problem!
The 1992 stock was the first attempt at a truly modern driving cab, and was a lot better than the first ATO stock (1967), which had the start buttons behind the driver.

The door controls were behind the driver, the ATO start buttons were conveniently placed in front of the driver below the speedometer and air gauges.

[superteacher]

Nov 13, 2021 10:59:41 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Nov 13, 2021 10:28:47 GMT superteacher said:

Some “long arm” tactics may solve the problem!
The 1992 stock was the first attempt at a truly modern driving cab, and was a lot better than the first ATO stock (1967), which had the start buttons behind the driver.

The door controls were behind the driver, the ATO start buttons were conveniently placed in front of the driver below the speedometer and air gauges.

Thanks - I knew that there were some controls behind but got it the wrung way round!

I believe the door controls were moved upon refurbishment.

[Dstock7080]

Nov 13, 2021 11:57:41 GMT superteacher said:

Thanks - I knew that there were some controls behind but got it the wrung way round!

(they were on the back panel as the Operator would be looking back down the straight platform at each station.)

[Tom]

Nov 13, 2021 11:57:41 GMT superteacher said:

I believe the door controls were moved upon refurbishment.

They were, they ended up just below the droplight, so the Train Operator had to physically cross the cab to Open up on the relevant side.

[philthetube]

Not sure if I have missed it but could someone please say which lines this occurs on?

[class411]

Nov 14, 2021 13:15:58 GMT philthetube said:

Not sure if I have missed it but could someone please say which lines this occurs on?

If you don't know, scroll up to the top and you will see which forum the post is in.

In this case, it's the Central Line.

[philthetube]

Sorry, many of us just use the recently updated threads page and this does not state the forum section the post is in.

[Chris M]

Nov 15, 2021 11:19:49 GMT philthetube said:

Sorry, many of us just use the recently updated threads page and this does not state the forum section the post is in.

But when you read the post, the top of the page does say.

[class411]

Nov 15, 2021 11:19:49 GMT philthetube said:

Sorry, many of us just use the recently updated threads page and this does not state the forum section the post is in.

Yes, that happens to me a lot, because that's how I almost always access the site.

Eventually I discovered the line at the top of the page.

[philthetube]

I hadn't noticed that either, thanks.

[DWS]

Nov 11, 2021 11:00:56 GMT hobbayne said:

Its pretty much not a company issue, but local management turn a blind eye to them. It saves your back from aching with the constant leaning forward and back while having to operate the door controls while you check the monitors.
I use one myself, it makes life easier.

Any chance of a photo of one of these things, remember in the days of guards some used two bits of round wood to press buttons on the door panels.

[zbang]

Nov 15, 2021 12:28:41 GMT Chris M said:

Nov 15, 2021 11:19:49 GMT philthetube said:

Sorry, many of us just use the recently updated threads page and this does not state the forum section the post is in.

But when you read the post, the top of the page does say.

Which you have to scroll up to see, negating the functionality of the "New" button on the "Recently updated" page. It's also in smaller type than most other text.

Anyway, it's a reasonable question to ask when not obvious from the actual discussion.

[1018509]

Nov 13, 2021 10:59:41 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Nov 13, 2021 10:28:47 GMT superteacher said:

Some “long arm” tactics may solve the problem!
The 1992 stock was the first attempt at a truly modern driving cab, and was a lot better than the first ATO stock (1967), which had the start buttons behind the driver.

The door controls were behind the driver, the ATO start buttons were conveniently placed in front of the driver below the speedometer and air gauges.

IIRC the door controls on 67 stock was a lever with a button on he top which had to be pressed. I may be wrong it's 40 odd years since I worked on the Victoria line.

[t697]

Nov 15, 2021 16:51:10 GMT 1018509 said:

Nov 13, 2021 10:59:41 GMT Dstock7080 said:

The door controls were behind the driver, the ATO start buttons were conveniently placed in front of the driver below the speedometer and air gauges.

IIRC the door controls on 67 stock was a lever with a button on he top which had to be pressed. I may be wrong it's 40 odd years since I worked on the Victoria line.

That's right.  The door controller was unique to the 67TS fleet.  But I seem to recall in later years it was replaced by a more normal set of push buttons for the doors.  The droplight window still had to be above the marked line so within about 2 inches from fully closed before ATO Start would work.

I think the idea of the 67TS door controller was that the T/Op could work it almost entirely by feel and thus concentrate on the task of watching for safe conditions at the platform/train interface (PTI).  Quite good ergonomically but I think the cost of maintenance or renewal moved things on to a set of buttons.  Maybe the provision of platform OPO Monitors helped, so the T/Op no longer had to lean out to check the PTI?

Sorry, back to Central line now....