Dstock7080
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 9, 2021 16:07:22 GMT
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 9, 2021 18:18:14 GMT
I saw this earlier and wondered why TFL aren't bothered about commercially owned e-scooters catching setting the network ablaze.
The sign above does not appear to make the distinction.
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Post by cudsn15 on Dec 9, 2021 18:56:02 GMT
*shrug* this is not going to stop them. They are already using them illegally on the roads and pavements why would they stop taking them on public transport? it's not as if anyone is going to stop them is it?
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Dstock7080
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 9, 2021 19:24:09 GMT
I saw this earlier and wondered why TFL aren't bothered about commercially owned e-scooters catching setting the network ablaze. The sign above does not appear to make the distinction. E-scooters hired under TfL’s rental e-scooter trial have already been banned from TfL’s services because they cannot be folded. |
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Post by jimbo on Dec 9, 2021 19:54:59 GMT
Unfortunately, we have recently had two separate safety incidents occur on our network, both involving e-bikes. On 26 October, an e-unicycle was identified as an item of lost property on a Jubilee line train and moved for storage to the station control room at Stanmore. While there, it spontaneously ignited causing significant damage to the room.
On 1 November, an e-scooter spontaneously ignited on a District line train between Putney Bridge and Parsons Green, causing damage to the train flooring. On-train CCTV showed customers quickly moving away from the fire, and the carriage filling with smoke in under a minute. An ambulance attended Parsons Green station to help attend to customers impacted by the incident.
(from TfL Commissioner’s report - December 2021)
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 9, 2021 23:29:43 GMT
I saw this earlier and wondered why TFL aren't bothered about commercially owned e-scooters catching setting the network ablaze. The sign above does not appear to make the distinction. E-scooters hired under TfL’s rental e-scooter trial have already been banned from TfL’s services because they cannot be folded. Yes, but, technically, if anyone else offered them for hire, they would not be banned. Which is odd. If you want to ban e-scooters because they are a fire risk, why not just say they are banned, rather than fannying around banning one type and then, later, another? (Whilst, apparently, leaving a loophole for another commercial operator's scooters that would then need to be banned with a third order.) |
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Dstock7080
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 10, 2021 6:28:25 GMT
Yes, but, technically, if anyone else offered them for hire, they would not be banned. I think is quite clear (existing wording): The announcement yesterday removes the Private folded e-scooter anomaly and the signing from Monday is very clear |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 10, 2021 10:07:20 GMT
Yes, but, technically, if anyone else offered them for hire, they would not be banned. I think is quite clear (existing wording): The announcement yesterday removes the Private folded e-scooter anomaly and the signing from Monday is very clear Phew, we got there in the end. It was the text in the first post that was not clear. "Privately-owned e-scooters and e-unicycles will not be permitted on any TfL service or premises
Transport for London (TfL) has announced that all privately-owned e-scooters and e-unicycles, including those that can be folded or carried, will be banned on London's transport network from Monday 13 December. This is the result of safety concerns about these items following recent fires on TfL premises & services. Customers in possession of such devices will not be permitted to enter any premises on TfL's network or travel on any of its services, including on the Tube, buses, Overground, TfL Rail, Trams and DLR."Whilst not inaccurate, to anyone who was not aware of the extant ban on rented scooters, it made it appear that it was specifically private scooters that were not permitted. |
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 10, 2021 21:00:30 GMT
So passengers using a Greater Anglia or C2C train at Stratford will be denied access to the platforms?
Not allowed to alight from the trains and exit the station nor enter the station and board the train?
Similar situations (with variations) will apply at other stations served by a mix of TfL and non-TfL services?
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Post by brigham on Dec 11, 2021 8:48:30 GMT
So passengers using a Greater Anglia or C2C train at Stratford will be denied access to the platforms? Not allowed to alight from the trains and exit the station nor enter the station and board the train? Similar situations (with variations) will apply at other stations served by a mix of TfL and non-TfL services? We eagerly await the next spasm of circumlocution! |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 11, 2021 9:53:06 GMT
So passengers using a Greater Anglia or C2C train at Stratford will be denied access to the platforms? Not allowed to alight from the trains and exit the station nor enter the station and board the train? Similar situations (with variations) will apply at other stations served by a mix of TfL and non-TfL services? Well, if the things are in danger of catching fire, I would think it would be best if they were banned from all trains. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 11, 2021 11:40:56 GMT
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 11, 2021 13:05:51 GMT
Well, if the things are in danger of catching fire, I would think it would be best if they were banned from all trains. I suspect they will be, it'll just be a case of going through all the relevant processes to change the bylaws. As the mainline bylaws have far more stakeholders than TfL's or Nexus' I would guess this will take longer for consultations, etc. Especially if action is required from the DfT. |
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Post by zbang on Dec 11, 2021 16:10:23 GMT
And here's the thing-
Just how many of these machines have actually caught fire at all? (I don't know.) For a while there was a laptop computer fire scare where a very few models of machine occasionally lit up (but none of the others did), yet we're still allowed to carry them pretty much everywhere. Same for power tool batteries. This sort of ban smacks of an antipathy to the machine and the people who are likely to use it. Granted that some will have shoddy design/construction but many won't. Granted that there have been a couple of fires but has anyone submitted the failed product for root-cause analysis? I'd be somewhat surprised if TfL did.
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Post by t697 on Dec 11, 2021 17:43:51 GMT
I think at least two cases on TfL. The one at Parsons Green was quite serious. It started on a train between stations and could have been worse for passengers if it hadn't been a modern through gangway S stock train, lightly loaded, so they were able to retreat to other cars to get away from the smoke and fumes.
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Post by croxleyn on Dec 11, 2021 18:25:13 GMT
I wonder about Segways? Some years ago I saw Warwick Davis using a mini one to join the throng of passengers along a platform at Kings Cross mainline station. It made him just about the same height as most others...
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 11, 2021 18:48:26 GMT
I wonder about Segways? Some years ago I saw Warwick Davis using a mini one to join the throng of passengers along a platform at Kings Cross mainline station. It made him just about the same height as most others... One of the (many) reasons they failed was that a number of them caught fire. The reason why transport authorities are more concerned about e-scooters and the like than they are about laptops/phones/e-readers is probably that they have significantly bigger batteries. |
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Post by Tom on Dec 11, 2021 22:03:54 GMT
I wonder about Segways? Some years ago I saw Warwick Davis using a mini one to join the throng of passengers along a platform at Kings Cross mainline station. It made him just about the same height as most others... I believe using a Segway has always been illegal other than on Private Property. |
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Post by zbang on Dec 11, 2021 22:40:09 GMT
The reason why transport authorities are more concerned about e-scooters and the like than they are about laptops/phones/e-readers is probably that they have significantly bigger batteries. Not so sure about that, some laptop and power tool batteries are getting up there in capacity- in the US, Milwaukee is selling 12AH tool batteries now, and that's quite comparable to many e-scooters & uni-things. Is there a ban on battery-powered tools?
Anyway, does anyone else remember the laptop battery scare on commercial airlines a few years ago? That quietly went away, largely as I recall, because it turned out to be a very small problem compared to other problems (the risk-management thing that keeps coming up).
I also wonder how this will change when they generally become legal in London (as they are in many other cities, the hold-up seems to be administrative. (I only mention that because I expect they will become legal and this TfL won't be able to use that as a reason.)
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 12, 2021 10:00:41 GMT
The reason why transport authorities are more concerned about e-scooters and the like than they are about laptops/phones/e-readers is probably that they have significantly bigger batteries. Not so sure about that, some laptop and power tool batteries are getting up there in capacity- in the US, Milwaukee is selling 12AH tool batteries now, and that's quite comparable to many e-scooters & uni-things. Is there a ban on battery-powered tools? Obviously not - unless it's a secret ban. LU operate reactively. They don't have a team of people searching the world's catalogues looking for big batteries. If something is causing a problem on their property, static or dynamic, they will do something about it. Although, pragmatically, power tools would be a bit of a problem, as they can be carried without being visible, unlike a scooter. When it comes to flight safety airlines, quite reasonably, operate a 'shoot first and ask questions later' policy. If they perceive a possible threat of fire in the air they will ban the possible cause until it's shown to be safe. They won't 'do a Boeing' and wait until a couple of aircraft have crashed before taking action. No, they won't, but TFL don't need it to be illegal to ban it. Smoking was legal, and you couldn't do it on the underground. Drinking alcohol is, generally, legal, but you can't do it on the underground. Indeed, riding a fixed frame bicycle is legal, but there are areas of the underground where you can't take a fixed frame bike. It's TFL's property and they can ban what they like as long as it does not infringe the rights of a protected group. |
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Post by straphanger on Dec 12, 2021 16:13:02 GMT
The battery/fire argument is an important one, but the other problem is that those who bring these contraptions onto the Tube in the rush hour seem to delight in swinging them around to whack as many people in the shins as possible. For this reason alone they should be banned from using any form of public transport forever.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 12, 2021 17:19:09 GMT
The battery/fire argument is an important one, but the other problem is that those who bring these contraptions onto the Tube in the rush hour seem to delight in swinging them around to whack as many people in the shins as possible. For this reason alone they should be banned from using any form of public transport forever. People once said similar things about wheelchairs, now trains are built to accommodate them. Lots of modern stock has similarly been built with cycle spaces; the new Merseyrail trains have six cycle spaces per train so that cycles can be carried. |
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Post by firestorm on Dec 12, 2021 21:12:54 GMT
The general feeling among staff is the worst cast scenario of an e-scooter going off on in a tube train inside a tunnel. There's been several previous incidents related to smoke inside carriages and there has been panic. The video of the s-stock at parson's green just showed the amount of smoke from that single e-scooter. Thankfully like it was mentioned before, the s-stock has walkthrough carriages and the HVAC system can open the vents to vent out smoke. Other rolling stock don't have any of these so it's quite a good thing that Tfl are being pro-active, instead of waiting for an incident to occur.
It is also said, smoke is more dangerous than fire.
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 12, 2021 21:35:00 GMT
So passengers using a Greater Anglia or C2C train at Stratford will be denied access to the platforms? Not allowed to alight from the trains and exit the station nor enter the station and board the train? Similar situations (with variations) will apply at other stations served by a mix of TfL and non-TfL services? Well, if the things are in danger of catching fire, I would think it would be best if they were banned from all trains. Indeed so, but that is a different issue. btw, my Stratford example was a London based variant of what happened several years ago when people wanted to catch a train from Brighton (I think it was that they had unfolded bikes) so that they could return home but were denied access to the platform, even though they had brought the bikes with them on the train earlier that day. The problem was that the TOC which ran the majority of trains to and from that station had banned the unfolded bikes but these passengers wanted to catch a train operated by another TOC (probably CrossCountry) who did not ban unfolded bikes. The improperly trained station staff simply said 'no admittance' - they did not understand the subtlety of the situation / refused to listen / just did not want to know. |
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Post by castlebar on Dec 13, 2021 19:26:09 GMT
Well, On Saturday I saw what was a 'first' for me. lt proves the dangers inherent with e-scooters
You can't use a mobile phone and drive a car, but on Saturday, in Littlehampton,
someone drove through the pedestrian precinct on an e-scooter, steering with one hand and texting (or dialling a number) with the other. Of course, his eyes were on the phone with only occasional glances at the pedestrians.
Only a minute or so earlier, I had seen a woman with a guide dog. Fortunately they were heading in opposite directions away from each other.
It's not only batteries that are dangerous. People these days seem to be more irresponsible than in earlier years. People are dangerous too.
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Post by zbang on Dec 14, 2021 2:51:33 GMT
You can't use a mobile phone and drive a car, but on Saturday, in Littlehampton, someone drove through the pedestrian precinct on an e-scooter, steering with one hand and texting (or dialling a number) with the other. Which suggests they can't ride a scooter with a mobile, either. (Being able does not equate to being allowed.) |
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Post by cudsn15 on Dec 14, 2021 9:20:45 GMT
It still doesn't matter - these people are already using the scooters illegally - just putting a sticker up saying "banned" isn't going to stop them.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Dec 14, 2021 9:49:19 GMT
I agree it doesn't, but it moves the goalposts in TfL's favour in a couple of ways: - It now gives staff powers to refuse entry to people with scooters
- If another incident involving a scooter takes place, it puts TfL in a stronger position to recover costs for any damage and/or injury, especially if the person using the scooter knew them to be banned (and was therefore knowingly in contravention).
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 14, 2021 10:08:48 GMT
I agree it doesn't, but it moves the goalposts in TfL's favour in a couple of ways: - It now gives staff powers to refuse entry to people with scooters
- If another incident involving a scooter takes place, it puts TfL in a stronger position to recover costs for any damage and/or injury, especially if the person using the scooter knew them to be banned (and was therefore knowingly in contravention).
Also, provided people are aware of the rule - which should not be difficult to ensure, it will be a massive disincentive (provided at least a reasonable effort is made to enforce it), because if you tried to bring a scooter and were turned back it would make you late - possibly seriously late. Worse, if you were refused on the return journey you would be left with the scooter stuck at your initial destination. These two risks alone should dramatically reduce the numbers of people willing to try to flout the rule. |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 14, 2021 13:43:55 GMT
Interestingly the announcement I heard about this at Stratford yesterday indicated that they were banned from all TfL services and premises, rather than just trains and stations as is the usual wording for things like this.
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