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Post by AndrewPSSP on Jan 25, 2022 11:18:08 GMT
The thread on the old ANITA announcements made me think of a few questions
How long does it take for changes to announcements be rolled out across a line's fleet of trains, how does this information on the on-board computer get transmitted onto the displays and speakers throughout the train, and how does the train know when to fire the announcements - especially the station approach? I am especially interested in the 1996/95 stock and those coming before, especially those who had these systems installed later on in their lives.
Also, why do the Jubilee line displays find it difficult to simply display the station name when the train stops in a station?
Most trains will display it for around 3 seconds if you're lucky before going to the destination text. Some trains I've found scroll through the next station text once or twice whilst standing at the station before going to the destination text. I have been on one train (multiple times I believe) that when stopped at the station show the station name, and don't update until leaving the station and the next station text is generated.
There also seems to be a high delay between the "this station is" "the next station is" and "this train terminates at" and actual station information announcements, especially when compared to older pre-TBTC footage. How could this have affected the announcements, and why has this not affected the Northern line?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jan 25, 2022 12:07:01 GMT
S Stock also bizarrely has its internal describers go blank approaching each station.
There are really only two things regular users want from these displays: The destination, to confirm you are on the correct train, and an indication of where you are as the unit comes to a stop (for those of us who spend most journeys deep in a book).
It's rather irritating when a train arrives at a station* and the indicator turns off. Why can't it display the current station?
* It's surprising how often you can find yourself in a position where you cannot see any station name plate - particularly if the train is packed.
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Jan 25, 2022 12:27:56 GMT
Yes I agree. I feel the Northern and Victoria line displays display systems are some of the best on the network for showing information a passenger would need, when they need it. With your point on the displays, I'm not too sure on the Viccy but on the Northern line the display does go blank after the next station announcement has sounded, but the "this station is.." message begins just before the train comes to a complete halt
Also, I think the Northern line Celia announcements are the best on the network for clarity. It is relatively easier to hear Celia than it is the new lady.
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Post by t697 on Jan 25, 2022 12:49:13 GMT
S Stock also bizarrely has its internal describers go blank approaching each station. There are really only two things regular users want from these displays: The destination, to confirm you are on the correct train, and an indication of where you are as the unit comes to a stop (for those of us who spend most journeys deep in a book). It's rather irritating when a train arrives at a station* and the indicator turns off. Why can't it display the current station? * It's surprising how often you can find yourself in a position where you cannot see any station name plate - particularly if the train is packed. I seem to recall explaining the S stock visual display sequence reasoning in another thread. The screen blanks after the station approach message so as to be ready to give the 'At Station' one as soon as the doors open. This was effectively a lesson learned from previous schemes where a long approach message would start a second scroll around just before the train stopped and because of the rule that messages have to finish before the next can start, this unduly delays the At Station one. Then the At Station one becomes too late to be useful.
The distance before the station for the approach message is adjustable and may be adjusted slightly shorter on some stations this year. You seem to be hinting at an alternative "displaying the current station". Not certain what you have in mind here. Do you mean the station being arrived at? And in what form would you choose to display it?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jan 25, 2022 13:31:56 GMT
S Stock also bizarrely has its internal describers go blank approaching each station. There are really only two things regular users want from these displays: The destination, to confirm you are on the correct train, and an indication of where you are as the unit comes to a stop (for those of us who spend most journeys deep in a book). It's rather irritating when a train arrives at a station* and the indicator turns off. Why can't it display the current station? * It's surprising how often you can find yourself in a position where you cannot see any station name plate - particularly if the train is packed. I seem to recall explaining the S stock visual display sequence reasoning in another thread. The screen blanks after the station approach message so as to be ready to give the 'At Station' one as soon as the doors open. This was effectively a lesson learned from previous schemes where a long approach message would start a second scroll around just before the train stopped and because of the rule that messages have to finish before the next can start, this unduly delays the At Station one. Then the At Station one becomes too late to be useful. The distance before the station for the approach message is adjustable and may be adjusted slightly shorter on some stations this year. You seem to be hinting at an alternative "displaying the current station". Not certain what you have in mind here. Do you mean the station being arrived at? And in what form would you choose to display it? Sorry, I do remember you explaining that - it had slipped my mind. What I would expect is that as soon as the 'in motion' messages have stopped (for the reason you describe above), the station name would be displayed. I just notice that, if I'm not aware of which station we are approaching, I instinctively look up at the describer, only to find it blank. I can't remember what happens next, as I can usually work out the station from its appearance even if I can't see a name plate. |
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Post by brigham on Jan 26, 2022 8:41:00 GMT
Perhaps the blank period is an advertising space not yet open to tender?
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Post by t697 on Jan 26, 2022 17:07:10 GMT
No plans to advertise on the S stock CIS as far as I know, thankfully. Given the recent initiative from the DfT to reduce unnecessary announcements (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/unnecessary-train-announcements-binned-in-bonfire-of-the-banalities) they'd have to be visual only!
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Post by t697 on Jan 26, 2022 17:18:47 GMT
Looking at how the S stock Station Approach message works I can see it would be possible to make edits so it would scroll multiple times and then stop immediately, most likely mid-scroll, and be superseded by the At Station message. I quite like the idea but it's against LU Standards to do that.
There is an example already though, in that the Station Approach message itself stops the Between Stations one immediately, but that was agreed as a special case because there has been plenty of time to read that one already and in any case both these messages do include the name of the next station.
Perhaps some readers might like to campaign on the point or get involved with interest groups of users that TfL/LUL consults on these matters.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jan 26, 2022 18:27:37 GMT
Why would simply showing the station name once the scrolling messages have stopped contravene the rules?
And does this 'remove clutter' ruling mean that the absurd 'we are being held at a red signal' message be going.
Apparently it is there for people who are unfamiliar with railways and don't know that trains ever stop at signals between stations. It was thought that telling them they are being held at a red signal (even though, they don't know what one is) is reassuring and will stop them panicking and running amok.
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Post by zbang on Jan 26, 2022 23:34:41 GMT
Perhaps the real problem is in the LU standards here.
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Post by Chris M on Jan 26, 2022 23:57:23 GMT
Apparently it is there for people who are unfamiliar with railways and don't know that trains ever stop at signals between stations. It was thought that telling them they are being held at a red signal (even though, they don't know what one is) is reassuring and will stop them panicking and running amok. We had a thread on this not so long back, where it was explained to you (at length iirc) the purpose and benefits of this message. It's probably best to review that thread before commenting further lest the staff have to break out the green or red ink. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 27, 2022 0:55:45 GMT
Yes, let's stick to the specifics of how announcements work, rather than why certain messages exist.
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Post by t697 on Jan 27, 2022 7:11:55 GMT
Why would simply showing the station name once the scrolling messages have stopped contravene the rules? It wouldn't contravene the rules. My note on the possibilities was bounded by assessment of what is clearly practicable using the editing facility for this system. I haven't investigated in depth what would be involved in accomplishing the suggestion for static display of the station name, but it is clearly a much more involved process than the possibility I suggested. I've been looking at this from a practical implementation point of view. It's open to campaigners to approach the topic from the angle of what would be best if achievable.
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Post by alpinejohn on Jan 27, 2022 8:36:51 GMT
Doubtless regulars will not be at all phased when a train gets held by signals, however there is a finite time beyond which some people do start getting agitated. This AIB link www.gov.uk/government/publications/safety-digest-092019-north-pole-junction/passengers-self-evacuating-at-north-pole-junction-15-july-2019mentions several instances where passenger agitation can eventually result in some making potentially dangerous decisions - even going so far as forcing doors open and self evacuating onto tracks where the power rail may potentially be still live. The ability to issue a timely automated message can greatly reassure passengers that the driver is alert to the delay, and allow the driver to focus on communicating with signallers and getting any problem resolved swiftly. Indeed as the new tube rolling stock is being designed with at least passive provision for eventual automated operation - I suspect that reassurance messages will be of even greater value if we ever reach the point of these trains operating without a driver onboard. However by the time any Tube trains actually switch to automated operation, doubtless someone will have done some research to determine what notices are really needed(work), especially given several fully automated transit systems will by then have been operating elsewhere for many years and well placed to advise. |
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Post by t697 on Jan 27, 2022 11:17:29 GMT
The thread on the old ANITA announcements made me think of a few questions How long does it take for changes to announcements be rolled out across a line's fleet of trains, how does this information on the on-board computer get transmitted onto the displays and speakers throughout the train, and how does the train know when to fire the announcements - especially the station approach? I am especially interested in the 1996/95 stock and those coming before, especially those who had these systems installed later on in their lives. Also, why do the Jubilee line displays find it difficult to simply display the station name when the train stops in a station? Most trains will display it for around 3 seconds if you're lucky before going to the destination text. Some trains I've found scroll through the next station text once or twice whilst standing at the station before going to the destination text. I have been on one train (multiple times I believe) that when stopped at the station show the station name, and don't update until leaving the station and the next station text is generated. There also seems to be a high delay between the "this station is" "the next station is" and "this train terminates at" and actual station information announcements, especially when compared to older pre-TBTC footage. How could this have affected the announcements, and why has this not affected the Northern line? Looking at the original post in the thread here. A fleet roll-out pace depends on perceived urgency and other workload for staff involved as well as how long an individual software load takes. The recent new announcement set on the Northern line for Bank closure took just under 3 weeks to do all 106 trains. The S stock system takes longer, about 12 weeks for 192 trains.
The technical systems on each fleet differ, reflecting available technology at the time of design, but in general use computer networks to distribute commands to 'car controllers' or similar names. Different systems work differently in 'knowing' when to play messages. As built, the Jubilee system had the line's station sequences in memory so knew that after Canons Park the next one was Queensbury if the destination is Stratford and so on. With the introduction of the TBTC signalling on Jubilee and Northern both these fleets' different systems were altered to use triggers from ATC for 'at', leaving', 'approaching' station, each with the station code as well. The idea being to better position announcements in relation to the station. The OP may agree it hasn't been a 100% success! On S stock with greater memory and processing capacity in the system the train only needs a trigger at each station to confirm the station ID. All the inter station distances and sequences are stored in memory together with trigger distances for the station approach.
As to "why do the Jubilee line displays find it difficult to simply display the station name when the train stops in a station?", this will be because that's not the only information they are supposed to be displaying. They are required to display destination and next station too and there's only limited station dwell time available on the Tube. The OP's next paragraph may be describing equipment with faults I suspect.
Regarding display pauses between sentences there is/was a requirement to scroll an announcement off the screen before starting a new one. I think there has been variable interpretation of this. I'd say the whole of an at station announcement is one announcement, but others may have interpreted it as each sentence being a separate announcement. Equally it could be an equipment limitation. Remember the Jubilee system was designed in the early 1990s.
Lastly on the original Jubilee set-up, this used static display of words or phrases for 2 seconds stepping through a message. This was considered best practice for message intelligibility and legibility at the time to assist passengers with poorer eyesight. This gave a good discipline on keeping messages short and to the point, e.g: Next station: [on screen for 2 seconds] Westminster [on screen for 2 seconds] Change for: [on screen for 2 seconds] Circle & [on screen for 2 seconds] District lines [on screen for 2 seconds then start again]
The Jubilee line dot matrix screens (DMIs) are the narrowest on LUL, which also doesn't help with reading scrolling messages as less is on screen at any instant. Another legacy of how long ago the system dates back to. This contrasts with the wide DMIs on S stock, probably the last on LUL to use DMIs in the saloons.
It's interesting that very recent fleets of trains using computer screens for CIS displays have mostly reverted to static display of information.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jan 27, 2022 11:22:48 GMT
It's a pity that LU don't go for the system used on some foreign metros (Amsterdam and Rome spring to mind), where there is a line diagram with lamps showing progress at several points in each carriage.
I suspect that it would be impractical on all but the Victoria line, as LU lines are often longer, and tend to bifurcate. Also, stock can be moved from line to line.
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Post by t697 on Jan 27, 2022 11:35:26 GMT
It's a pity that LU don't go for the system used on some foreign metros (Amsterdam and Rome spring to mind), where there is a line diagram with lamps showing progress at several points in each carriage. I suspect that it would be impractical on all but the Victoria line, as LU lines are often longer, and tend to bifurcate. Also, stock can be moved from line to line. The newer screen types are usually programmed up to display the next few stations as a line diagram for part of their sequence and I think Picc line will be doing that. There have been comments in other threads about where that still might not be as helpful as it could be, often when passengers are concerned about different stopping patterns and stations later in the trip than currently on screen. |
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Post by zbang on Jan 27, 2022 16:46:42 GMT
It's a pity that LU don't go for the system used on some foreign metros (Amsterdam and Rome spring to mind), where there is a line diagram with lamps showing progress at several points in each carriage. I suspect that it would be impractical on all but the Victoria line, as LU lines are often longer, and tend to bifurcate. Also, stock can be moved from line to line. The new Siemens cars in San Francisco cars do something like that, and since they're new enough, including serving different lines with a fair number of stops. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 29, 2022 23:45:56 GMT
I've seen this in several overseas cities, including Paris and Hong Kong. I've never gotten around to putting photos of them online. In Hong Kong they also have arrows which show direction of travel and advise passengers which side of the train the doors will open. The newest version uses LCD displays above the doors (instead of a paper type of map with individual lights), which is possibly easier to maintain and cheaper to adapt for changes. Below is a photo from Dublin which I took in circa 2007... one colour for the route to be travelled, another for stations the train has passed and the next station flashes. If they could do this 'in those days' we in London really should be doing this 'today' - very much especially with the S7 trains (an issue we have discussed here on DD in years past)  |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 30, 2022 7:22:34 GMT
Below is a photo from Dublin which I took in circa 2007... one colour for the route to be travelled, another for stations the train has passed and the next station flashes. If they could do this 'in those days' we in London really should be doing this 'today' - very much especially with the S7 trains (an issue we have discussed here on DD in years past) This type of display was proposed for the new 1992 Stock, which we have discussed in past years and a photo was provided. (picture uploaded May 2013 to this Forum, post not found!) |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 1, 2022 11:19:44 GMT
Below is a photo from Dublin which I took in circa 2007... one colour for the route to be travelled, another for stations the train has passed and the next station flashes. If they could do this 'in those days' we in London really should be doing this 'today' - very much especially with the S7 trains (an issue we have discussed here on DD in years past) This type of display was proposed for the new 1992 Stock, which we have discussed in past years and a photo was provided. (picture uploaded May 2013 to this Forum, post not found!) Its a shame that the post was not found as I do not recall ever seeing that photograph. I suspect that penny-pinching explains why this did not become a reality |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 1, 2022 11:37:21 GMT
Its a shame that the post was not found as I do not recall ever seeing that photograph. the picture is here: it's the post regarding internal displays from 2013 i can't find!  also discussed was the (at the time) New York subway style of display:  |
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Post by Chris L on Feb 1, 2022 13:23:23 GMT
The technology has advanced since then and flat screen colour displays can achieve better results as on the Class 345 trains.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 1, 2022 13:35:21 GMT
The technology has advanced since then and flat screen colour displays can achieve better results as on the Class 345 trains. They would solve the problem of having different lines in every carriage in case one or a set is moved. I'd love to know the technology they deploy to ensure that the line directly opposite you is always the one you are not currently travelling on. (Actually, classic confirmation bias.) |
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Post by Chris L on Feb 2, 2022 11:28:16 GMT
The technology has advanced since then and flat screen colour displays can achieve better results as on the Class 345 trains. They would solve the problem of having different lines in every carriage in case one or a set is moved. I'd love to know the technology they deploy to ensure that the line directly opposite you is always the one you are not currently travelling on. (Actually, classic confirmation bias.) Which is why the screens in the Class 345 (and other recent main line) trains work. The displays are much easier to modify. |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 4, 2022 23:42:26 GMT
The technology has advanced since then and flat screen colour displays can achieve better results as on the Class 345 trains. Yes it works but it only shows the next few stations, so is more a variant on a theme. |
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Post by Chris L on Feb 5, 2022 4:16:34 GMT
The technology has advanced since then and flat screen colour displays can achieve better results as on the Class 345 trains. Yes it works but it only shows the next few stations, so is more a variant on a theme. The screens can show whatever is required. Much more flexible. |
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Post by brigham on Feb 5, 2022 8:27:47 GMT
Another opportunity to promote "Oakey's Knife Polish" between stops?
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 13, 2022 12:40:49 GMT
Another opportunity to promote "Oakey's Knife Polish" between stops? Yes, when not showing maps etc they could include other things - including the weather forecast and commercial advertising. That said, many passengers might prefer 'more maps' and 'less advertising'. This short YouTube which I filmed decades ago shows the theme... note that the interchange information for the next station includes other services that are not operated by the metro - suburban trains and buses! |
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Post by brigham on Feb 14, 2022 8:45:12 GMT
"Il fait chaud. Mangez Danino"
It's utterly irrelevant that some passengers might prefer 'more maps' and 'less advertising'.
Commercial television proved that long ago.
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