Doors on both sides

[xtmw]

Why don't drivers open the doors on both sides at Loughton and White City? It would be useful it they did

[spsmiler]

May 26, 2022 15:53:41 GMT xtmw said:

Why don't drivers open the doors on both sides at Loughton and White City? It would be useful it they did

No need, in fact it would possibly be counter productive.

Certainly at White City and probably also at Loughton (and Arnos Grove, Golders Green's centre track) the centre / middle tracks are generally used as terminus points by short working trains. So they only open their doors to alighting passengers on the correct side* for the direction of travel as then passengers who wanted a subsequent station can easily catch a next train on the other side of the island platform.

Then the doors on that side are closed and the doors on the other are opened. Perhaps not immediately, but instead not until that specific train is the next train. This way only passengers wanting to travel in that train's new direction of travel board it.

*At White City trains travel on the right, at all other named stations they travel on the left.


Much more irksome is not using both platforms alongside the centre tracks at terminus stations - Uxbridge, Cockfosters and Greenford^ (for the diesel shuttle to West Ealing) come to mind here. Also Norwood Junction where cross platform is actively stifled because the northbound Overground trains only open their doors on one side and the station stops are not lengthy enough to allow you to reach the other train if you use the steps and underpass. Anyway, running on steps is a tripping hazard!

^Cross platform interchange is also stifled at Greenford; in the days of slam door trains passengers could board / alight on either side but this facility was withdrawn when sliding door trains were introduced.


Maybe there is a reason for this (and at Norwood Junction) but to the passengers it just seems that the mainline railway does not like being *too* convenient to passengers.

[Chris M]

In at least some cases on the national network it is because it is only possible to monitor one side of the train at a time but it is not possible to close the doors on only one side of the train, thus creating a risk of trapping someone in the doors on the side not being monitored.

[aslefshrugged]

The procedure when arriving on the "middle road" at White City and Loughton is to open the doors on one side, make announcements over the PA (this train terminates here, etc.), warn that the doors are about to close before closing them, CHECK THE "DOORS CLOSED VISUAL" IN THE CAB IS ILLUMINATED (which you could not do if both sets of doors were open) and then open the doors on the other side before changing ends or being relieved by another driver.

[jimbo]

So what happens at Stratford westbound? If the 'doors closed' visual does not reappear, you cannot tell which side has a problem?

[AndrewS]

May 27, 2022 22:04:34 GMT Chris M said:

In at least some cases on the national network it is because it is only possible to monitor one side of the train at a time but it is not possible to close the doors on only one side of the train, thus creating a risk of trapping someone in the doors on the side not being monitored.

...leading to the annoying situation in the centre GWR bay road at Greenford that their doors only open one side despite passengers changing to/from Central line trains on both sides.

[trt]

So depending on direction it's either a very quick interchange or a walk around the whole length of the train to interchange.

[aslefshrugged]

May 28, 2022 9:36:52 GMT jimbo said:

So what happens at Stratford westbound? If the 'doors closed' visual does not reappear, you cannot tell which side has a problem?

Stratford isn't a terminus so we aren't changing ends or changing driver

The procedure is to re-open doors on one side and close, if DCV doesn't come on try again on the other side.  If that doesn't work repeat the process a couple of times and if it still doesn't work you have to walk back one side physically checking the doors, use the rear cab to cross to the other platform then do the same along the other side.

Thankfully I've not had that happen once since Platform 3A opened in 2011

[aslefshrugged]

May 28, 2022 18:22:48 GMT AndrewS said:

May 27, 2022 22:04:34 GMT Chris M said:

In at least some cases on the national network it is because it is only possible to monitor one side of the train at a time but it is not possible to close the doors on only one side of the train, thus creating a risk of trapping someone in the doors on the side not being monitored.

...leading to the annoying situation in the centre GWR bay road at Greenford that their doors only open one side despite passengers changing to/from Central line trains on both sides.

Annoying?  GWR use 2-car trains on the Greenford branch line (3-car at most), it hardly rates an inconvenience!

[castlebar]

The Greenford branch used slam door Class 121 bubble cars for many years from 1958, and slam door steam hauled carriages before that.
There was NEVER any problem
Then, somebody found a way of spending money and proclaimed that a fence should be built on one side. Waste of money, time, resources, (intelligence), etc,

[Tom]

The first bubble cars were actually what became class 122, though 121s were much more common.
There isn’t a fence on one side at Greenford, or at least there wasn’t when I was last there a couple of weeks ago.

[aslefshrugged]

May 29, 2022 10:03:24 GMT castlebar said:

The Greenford branch used slam door Class 121 bubble cars for many years from 1958, and slam door steam hauled carriages before that.
There was NEVER any problem
Then, somebody found a way of spending money and proclaimed that a fence should be built on one side. Waste of money, time, resources, (intelligence), etc,

There hasn't been a fence on either side of the middle platform at Greenford since I started driving the Central line in 2003

[castlebar]

Well, aslefshrugged, then it's even a bigger waste if one was put up and then later removed
It was only ever on one side and l haven't been there for nigh on 30 years.
But it was put up for a reason. Don't know when. Love to know when/why it was taken down.

[Tom]

I lived in Greenford from 1984 until 2012 and for all the time I can remember there wasn't.

[castlebar]

I left Greenford in 1978
I seem to remember it new then. And people complaining, alleging they missed a connection because of it.
But, life's too short and I don't care. Currently, there are more important things to focus on.
There is/was a photo on the Greenford/Northolt/Ealing Facebook sites, and if I can find it, I'll post it, but until then,
I have more important things to do such as driving from Worthing to Shrewsbury tomorrow and not getting back until next Saturday

[jimbo]

Do they still open both sides at Barking eastbound? I suppose that will cease with the Barking Riverside extension opening. Do S stock have the same problem of not knowing which side has a door problem? The plan is for South Kensington eastbound sub-surface lines to also have a platform each side before the escalator works commence. (Oh well, some time I suppose!)

[Dstock7080]

May 29, 2022 20:33:45 GMT jimbo said:

Do they still open both sides at Barking eastbound? I suppose that will cease with the Barking Riverside extension opening. Do S stock have the same problem of not knowing which side has a door problem? The plan is for South Kensington eastbound sub-surface lines to also have a platform each side before the escalator works commence. (Oh well, some time I suppose!)

Doors are still opened both sides at Barking, to serve platform 1 and the only lift at the station.
S Stock have the facility to view which individual doors haven’t closed via the TCMS screen.

[t697]

May 29, 2022 20:33:45 GMT jimbo said:

Do they still open both sides at Barking eastbound? I suppose that will cease with the Barking Riverside extension opening. Do S stock have the same problem of not knowing which side has a door problem? The plan is for South Kensington eastbound sub-surface lines to also have a platform each side before the escalator works commence. (Oh well, some time I suppose!)

I thought plans for opening the doors both side at South Kensington EB when the left hand platform is built had been dropped. Instead the current EB platform edge was due to gain an edge barrier.

I recall that the provision of a lift to that island platform would obstruct doors on the rear car. Cutting out doors on S stock is per door vestibule so you'd also lose the same doorway on the new platform which is counter productive for passenger flow.

[spsmiler]

May 29, 2022 22:40:33 GMT Dstock7080 said:

May 29, 2022 20:33:45 GMT jimbo said:

Do they still open both sides at Barking eastbound? I suppose that will cease with the Barking Riverside extension opening. Do S stock have the same problem of not knowing which side has a door problem? The plan is for South Kensington eastbound sub-surface lines to also have a platform each side before the escalator works commence. (Oh well, some time I suppose!)

Doors are still opened both sides at Barking, to serve platform 1 and the only lift at the station.
S Stock have the facility to view which individual doors haven’t closed via the TCMS screen.

Except for trains which terminate there! On these the doors are only opened on the C2C side.

Mainline trains 'doors close' buttons work on both sides simultaneously? Thats very bad!

re: Greenford, I wonder what will happen when the Vivarail converted D stock trains taken over the service.  One side or both?

btw, I managed to film the bubble cars at Greenford, both using silent super 8 film and also S-VHS video. In the latter someone can be heard closing a door on the other side of the train. if I had of known what was likely to happen in the future I would have tried to film the doors being used on both sides of the train. 
The present-day situation is very bad, needing to walk to the other side of the train really can make the difference between catching the train or having an enforced 30 minute wait for the next departure. Oh and in an era when smart card fares payment system count journey durations, this can make the difference between being charged the correct fare for the journey and being charged a penalty maximum fare for having taken too long.

[Dstock7080]

May 30, 2022 23:49:14 GMT spsmiler said:

Except for trains which terminate there! On these the doors are only opened on the C2C side.

Officially doors are supposed to be opened both sides for the reasons I gave.

[aslefshrugged]

The fairly obvious reason why they built a fence on one side of the middle road at Greenford is that back in the days of slam door trains whoever had responsibility to check that it was safe to leave (driver or guard?) would not be able to view both sides at the same time.

Assuming that the current service is "driver only operated" I'm guess they only open on one side now because they only have CCTV/mirrors for one platform (cheaper)

[d7666]

May 31, 2022 11:14:28 GMT aslefshrugged said:

The fairly obvious reason why they built a fence on one side of the middle road at Greenford is that back in the days of slam door trains whoever had responsibility to check that it was safe to leave (driver or guard?) would not be able to view both sides at the same time.

Assuming that the current service is "driver only operated" I'm guess they only open on one side now because they only have CCTV/mirrors for one platform (cheaper)

At the back of my mind there was a ORR|whoever mandate, or possible RAIB|whoever commentary in an incident report that all dual faced platforms served by non centrally locked passenger operated doors had to be blocked off on one side ? Whether that was simply related to driver|guard|other observation or some other factor no idea. Don't think the old mechanical DMMU as used on Greenford ever had CDL at that time did they ?

ISTR a main line station somewhere else that had short bays (3 car DMMU) with faces both sides that had to be taken out of use because of this and unable to fence off one side. I know Derby and Reading both had such layouts bays, but I'm not going to say it was one of those; there must be several other stations with the same configuration.

/digression

[Tom]

May 31, 2022 15:11:17 GMT d7666 said:

May 31, 2022 11:14:28 GMT aslefshrugged said:

The fairly obvious reason why they built a fence on one side of the middle road at Greenford is that back in the days of slam door trains whoever had responsibility to check that it was safe to leave (driver or guard?) would not be able to view both sides at the same time.

Assuming that the current service is "driver only operated" I'm guess they only open on one side now because they only have CCTV/mirrors for one platform (cheaper)

At the back of my mind there was a ORR|whoever mandate, or possible RAIB|whoever commentary in an incident report that all dual faced platforms served by non centrally locked passenger operated doors had to be blocked off on one side ? Whether that was simply related to driver|guard|other observation or some other factor no idea. Don't think the old mechanical DMMU as used on Greenford ever had CDL at that time did they ?

There was no central locking in those days, and there wasn't a fence either, from all the photos I've seen. Back in those days there were very few fences on the ends of platforms, let alone on a two sided platform. Passengers were trusted not to misbehave, and if they did, then it was their own fault.

Photo from 1986, though I've seen others earlier, all of which are the same:

15038 19860705 006 Greenford. Bay Platform, Direction South Greenford

[ijmad]

Are there any special safety rules for a double sided platform around traction current, particularly on the side where the conductor rail would be at the bottom of the gap? 

[Dstock7080]

Jun 2, 2022 16:07:04 GMT ijmad said:

Are there any special safety rules for a double sided platform around traction current, particularly on the side where the conductor rail would be at the bottom of the gap? 

Protection boards are usually provided either side of the positive rail.