LU TC cars to SLEO for CET 09-Jan

[d7666]

Expanding the abbreviations, London Undergound TC cars going to St.Leonards depot for fitting with controlled emission toilets 09/01/2023 according to this message on se-gen IO group - and duly acknowledged

QUOTE
Mon 09/01/23
56081 is planned to run light engine to West Ruislip, to pick up London Underground 4-TC coaches 70823, 71163, 76297 & 76324. These are going to St Leonards to allow Controlled Emission Toilets to be fitted to them.
0Z55 Tonbridge West Yard - West Ruislip LUL Depot
www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R03844/2023-01-09/detailed
5Z55 West Ruislip LUL Depot - St Leonards Rail Engineering Ltd
www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04579/2023-01-09/detailed
0Z56 St Leonards Rail Engineering Ltd - Tonbridge West Yard
www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R03845/2023-01-09/detailed 
UNQUOTE

I suppose the next question is where will the CET be emptied and serviced : I can't imagine LU is going to equip a depot with a CET ramp and all the necessary kit.

However, it does seem to show some commitment to keeping the TC, noteworthy in these times of economy.

[100andthirty]

As all heritage operators will be gradually fitting CETs to their coaches, I expect that they will all require a solution to emptying and replenishing them. I'm guessing but I see no reason not to adopt a lorry mounted method providing that the coaches can be aligned with a road. Lorry mounted machines and tanks are often used to empty aircraft 'foul waste' tanks. They are often known as 'honey wagons' I believe.

[metman]

Sounds like a good solution all round. It will allow the 4TC set to work beyond the network and perhaps bring some more revenue in to assist with maintaining the heritage set.

Quick question - do the driving controls still work in the cabs?

[goldenarrow]

Yes they do and were used during its visits to the Watercress Line

[d7666]

Jan 8, 2023 9:22:18 GMT 100andthirty said:

require a solution to emptying and replenishing them. I'm guessing but I see no reason not to adopt a lorry mounted method providing that the coaches can be aligned with a road. Lorry mounted machines and tanks are often used to empty aircraft 'foul waste' tanks. They are often known as 'honey wagons' I believe.

But still must be done on a sealed ramp (or pan or apron or whatever you want to call it) whether or not the device you dump into is static plant or mobile on rubber wheels.

An aircraft terminal ramp where road vehicles do this is already sealed.

Ballasted railway sidings are not. Inside maintenance and cleanings sheds are, but you'd not do this activity there; even main line have seperate isolated CET areas.

Which is why I said ramp in my post not siding. You can't trundle with a lorry to any old siding and do this anywhere - the ground it is on has to be sealed with it's own isolated drainage etc.

So, there is either the expense of providing this at a LU depot /somewhere/ that even small size is into 5 figures - or the stock will have to be worked to/from a.n.other main line depot after use for CET emptying - a four figure sum per trip by the time you've got crew / loco / path / etc and never mind contracting the emptying.

There may be exemptions for small scale facilites but to my knowledge no main line operator has found a way round - all CET main EMU DMU and LH stock have diagrams that rotate them via CET facilities.

This is also one reason (apart from the desire to retain heritage conditions) that heritage lines have not adopted CET for their rolling stock.

[100andthirty]

I presume all this sealed area business is to guard against leaks during emptying operations?

[rincew1nd]

Exactly, just like oil tanks are in a bund which has a capacity greater than the tank - in the case the apron is to prevent contamination of the ground (and watercourses) with raw sewage.

[phil]

Given…

(1) The Government is quite happy to allow water companies to polite our rivers and coasts with sewage while still paying directors large alarmed and shareholders handsome dividends

(2) Most rail freight companies are more than happy to fuel their locos from a road tanker on any convenient siding rather than somewhere with a proper fuel containment structure and no action is taken to stop it.

… I fail to see why a road tanker based toilet emptying solution will not be acceptable for the powers that be.

[brigham]

Usual over-the-top reaction to what is, in the scheme of things, a minor problem.

it's organic fertilizer, not toxic waste.

[d7666]

Feb 1, 2023 8:24:34 GMT brigham said:

Usual over-the-top reaction to what is, in the scheme of things, a minor problem.

it's organic fertilizer, not toxic waste.

I don't think you'd like any of it dumped in your garden. Or leaking into your garden from a nearby train depot.

It is not OTT. It is one of those areas where must consider every little marginal quantity else lots of little quantities build up to a big issue.

Do you have the same view of dog mess in the street ? That is one dog one time. Is that OK ? We are talking in this thread about a tankful of the stuff possibly being spilled.

[AndrewS]

Can't it be pumped out into the tanker through a hose much like the more sophisticated canal boat toilets or festival/building site "Tardis" toilets? Neither of those seem to present any particular problems and are probably comparable volumes.

[brigham]

Feb 1, 2023 23:53:47 GMT AndrewS said:

Can't it be pumped out into the tanker through a hose much like the more sophisticated canal boat toilets or festival/building site "Tardis" toilets? Neither of those seem to present any particular problems and are probably comparable volumes.

These simple solutions will be next for investigation, once natural human waste has been escalated to the same Hazchem factor as reactor products.

Emptying your Elsan will then require a safety regime, an operator's licence, and regulation safety clothing, all with the correct hazard rating and appropriate set of baffling 'risk levels'.

No doubt having a 'pee' behind the skips after closing time on Friday night will result in a 'call-out', with the street sealed-off and mobile decontamination units 'deployed'.

As for dog waste, I saw a totally unqualified person pick up a quantity of this substance in a plastic bag, and place it in a non-sealed bin at the side of the road, afterwards walking off without reporting the incident to the appropriate toxic waste authorities.

GASP!

[Tom]

Feb 1, 2023 8:24:34 GMT brigham said:

it's organic fertilizer, not toxic waste.

That's why there's recently been a campaign to improve Polio vaccination rates after samples of the virus were found in sewage across London.

[d7666]

Feb 2, 2023 8:51:49 GMT brigham said:

As for dog waste, I saw a totally unqualified person pick up a quantity of this substance in a plastic bag, and place it in a non-sealed bin at the side of the road, afterwards walking off without reporting the incident to the appropriate toxic waste authorities.

You are missing the point entirely.

That is a deliberate act by someone with some kit to remove the substance.

The issue about accidental contact from accidental spillage. That is why main line train depots etc have aprons for dealing with retention tanks. And accidental spillage from a retention tank is a good deal bigger incident than one dog.

Clearly you have never had to walk along rail track in the course of your work where trains use to drop everything into the four foot. Nor have you ever been to work under a train where the bogies and underframes are coated with anything and everything and more too.

If you ever had had any contact with any of that you would understand why even small spillages are an issue.

Or do you think not mitigating the potential spread of polio and cholera is a good idea ? Or getting into the water supply ? What do you think all those day time TV charity adverts for developing countries sanitation and clean water are all about ?

You can not have missed how rapidly covid spread. You want the same with cholera ?

Every potential spillage of human waste needs to be mitigated and every actual spillage contained. Else, as I said before, all the little incidents end up making a big one.

Every little helps (to abuse the slogan). Better known as ALARP. As Low As Reasonably Possible. Applies every bit as much to waste disposal as, for example, train protection.


EDIT tpyos coorectted

[miff]

Have the TC toilets always been in use for trips on LUL lines, or only when the stock is hired out? All other LUL stock seems to manage without them.