towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 24, 2023 17:57:13 GMT
Battery locos were built with the facility to have through control on engineers trains,as far as I know this was never used with the exception of engineers trains for the Brixton extension fitting out.Anyone here know if this is still the case?
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Post by t697 on Jan 24, 2023 19:48:39 GMT
Correct. Through control is not in use. When I last looked at the through control I couldn't understand how it could work going over points and crossings with current rail gaps. These locos don't have no-volt relays and drivers know they have to shut off over gaps and notch up again afterwards. Otherwise you get a tractive effort jerk at least and quite likely an overload trip. I don't see how a driver could know when to do that for a rear loco a variable distance to the rear depending on the train formation. Not sure if was ever used to any extent.
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Post by 100andthirty on Jan 24, 2023 21:57:04 GMT
Experiments with through control were carried out using on the 1985 battery locos which had "all mod cons" like no volt relays. I recall taking a hopper wagon train full of ballast with powered locos front and rear, on battery power alone from Ruislip Depot to Ongar and back to test the battery range.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 25, 2023 0:16:28 GMT
When they were doing the fitting out works on the Brixton extension the night call point fitter at Victoria had to join the train and ride with it to the work site,remove control jumpers where they were uncoupling the train and then when train was recoupled reinsert jumpers and do a control test before train left work site.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Jan 25, 2023 2:14:18 GMT
There has been mention of a project to scope requirements for a new engineering loco fleet, with claims that parts of the current locos are a century old! I presume these are parts robbed from scrapped trains. Any ideas what parts they are, and where they originally come from?
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Post by t697 on Jan 25, 2023 4:58:26 GMT
I understood the WT54D traction motors date from the 1930s so pretty close to 90 years old right now. The vehicle structural design and basic electrical scheme I think is from 1937 but the current locos were built from 1964 to 1973. I'm not sure whether bogies came from scrapped passenger stock along with the motors.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 25, 2023 11:28:50 GMT
I understood the WT54D traction motors date from the 1930s so pretty close to 90 years old right now. The vehicle structural design and basic electrical scheme I think is from 1937 but the current locos were built from 1964 to 1973. I'm not sure whether bogies came from scrapped passenger stock along with the motors. AIUI different batches of locos when nominally built new had EITHER recycled ex passenger stock bogies OR new bogies made to the same old passenger design; this batch gen is given in a book somewhere, but I right now I can't check. Think it is in WORKHORSES OF THE LONDON UNDERGROUND ? If not there, in a similar work. LT supplied bogies to builders no matter who assembled the complete loco. The bogies have been extensively reworked in the recent major refurbishment. The old traction motors over time have been rewound to latest applicable standard at time of rewind so are more or less in effect new and probably now give a test bench rating higher than the original performance specification. This upwards drift of motor performance generally occurs each time a DC motor is rewound to latest standards; it is no bad thing, it means the motor works at less than original maximum rating. Tha same is true of battery capacity upwards drift. Batteries last 5-10 years, depending on duty cycle (and which book you read !!) and each sucessive battery exchange slowly increased amp hour capacity. I have /most/ of the figures somewhere. Most of this is down to improved cell materials and manufacture. Interestingly, a corollary of that is the 2015-2020 refurbishment that despite significant 21C advances in lead acid cells, did not significantly increase capacity from the immediate previous cells, but, because the replacement cells are smaller and lighter, allowed the same battery capacity in a somewhat smaller space, in turn allowing for more room behind the cabs for other equipment.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Jan 25, 2023 19:16:18 GMT
There has been mention of a project to scope requirements for a new engineering loco fleet, with claims that parts of the current locos are a century old! I presume these are parts robbed from scrapped trains. Any ideas what parts they are, and where they originally come from? Found the quote "Some of the locomotives are already 50 to 60 years old, with 100 years old components in some instances." para 3.4 in Programmes and Investment Committee papers of 15 December 2021, title: London Underground Fleet Heavy Overhaul, Fleet and Engineering Vehicles Programmes link . Brake handles come to mind? These locos used to be filled with large batteries, which must have been very heavy. With advances of battery tech, are the current batteries lighter and smaller, or have they still filled them with the current battery design for more power or range?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 25, 2023 19:51:41 GMT
There has been mention of a project to scope requirements for a new engineering loco fleet Indeed there is, as a colleague of mine is going on to it. We kept him away from his beloved yellow slugs for the last four years or so and now he's starting to miss them...
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Post by d7666 on Jan 25, 2023 20:30:36 GMT
There has been mention of a project to scope requirements for a new engineering loco fleet Indeed there is, as a colleague of mine is going on to it. I thought the scoping had been done some time back; it is known what is wanted to do what, and when, and how many. Was done before covid, a couple of years before that even. The usual problem of money, procrastinate, money, postpone, money, put off, money, and did I mention money is the holdup.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 25, 2023 20:31:25 GMT
These locos used to be filled with large batteries, which must have been very heavy. With advances of battery tech, are the current batteries lighter and smaller, or have they still filled them with the current battery design for more power or range? See my post upthread preceding your question.
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Post by 100andthirty on Jan 26, 2023 6:31:10 GMT
Weight reduction is not a priority for locomotives. If, say, a 60t l9c is required to provide enough traction effort, then reducing the weight reduces traction effort, all other things remaining equal. On big freight locos ballast is sometimes added to bring the loco up to the weight limit or to balance the load end to end/side to side or both.
In the event lighter batteries led to a lighter loco, I'd increase the battery capacity.
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Post by t697 on Jan 26, 2023 7:03:21 GMT
But not too much more battery capacity - Don't forget the weight and space of all the multiple ATP equipments to allow it to operate on all the different LUL lines these days!
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 26, 2023 7:26:33 GMT
Regarding the motors I understood the Q stock had WT54B motors and the pre-1938 stock used WT54 motors. I wonder if there is much difference between the batches and the ‘D’ variety on the battery locos?
Looking at the build date of the current fleet it is interesting to note that the pre-1938 stock was being withdrawn in 1962-66 and the Q stock was being replaced between 1964-1971!
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Post by brigham on Jan 26, 2023 8:51:25 GMT
Is there a reason for 'scoping' new locomotives, other than 'old-eeugh!'?
Are the present machines losing their ability to do the job? What is the cost benefit of replacing them with new?
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Post by 100andthirty on Jan 26, 2023 11:11:02 GMT
But not too much more battery capacity - Don't forget the weight and space of all the multiple ATP equipments to allow it to operate on all the different LUL lines these days! Indeed, I know I mustn't upset signalling engineers but trainborne signalling kit does seem to be extraordianarily big/heavy!
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Post by d7666 on Jan 26, 2023 13:23:15 GMT
But not too much more battery capacity - Don't forget the weight and space of all the multiple ATP equipments to allow it to operate on all the different LUL lines these days! Indeed, I know I mustn't upset signalling engineers but trainborne signalling kit does seem to be extraordianarily big/heavy! As I explained, at the 2015 - 2020 refurbishment, the new lighter smaller cells installed were fitted in a smaller space than occupied by the preceding cells but of same amp-hour - the space released was used for other kit including all the assorted ATP stuff.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 26, 2023 13:28:54 GMT
Is there a reason for 'scoping' new locomotives, other than 'old-eeugh!'? Are the present machines losing their ability to do the job? What is the cost benefit of replacing them with new? That question, and all the potential answers and benefits, are no different to replacing any antiquated asset. Just because it is an engineers vehicle, the same principles apply to asset replacement. Rolling stock has a nominal book keeping life of 40 years.
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Post by Chris M on Jan 26, 2023 16:24:30 GMT
Is there a reason for 'scoping' new locomotives, other than 'old-eeugh!'? Are the present machines losing their ability to do the job? What is the cost benefit of replacing them with new? A scoping exercise like this is part of the cost-benefit analysis. Tube-gauge battery locomotives are not off-the-shelf products, when it is determined what is needed from the locomotives then manufacturers can be invited to submit bids to build new vehicles to the relevant specifications with details of expected life, etc. and those bids will be compared against the costs and expected life, etc. of refurbishing and/or rebuilding the existing vehicles. Given that new vehicles are being considered it is either clear that refurbishing them again will (almost certainly) be poorer value than new vehicles or that it is not immediately clear which option gives the best value.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 26, 2023 18:20:32 GMT
It is a bit of an odd question to ask what is reason for scoping.
Scoping is just a means to determine then define is wanted. If one does not do that, how on earth do you estimate costs or what to order ?
Even if the new locos are literally a new build to the existing design and do no more and no less than the existing locos do, that is still your scope. You still have to do it.
Do you buy a new / 2nd hand car without thinking about what you want ? Petrol ? Diesel ? Battery ? Hybrid ? Mini ? Compact ? Hatchback ? GTI ? 4x4 ? That is scoping.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 26, 2023 18:48:12 GMT
]Indeed, I know I mustn't upset signalling engineers but trainborne signalling kit does seem to be extraordianarily big/heavy! You won't upset this one. It was a lot simpler when all that was fitted to the train was a tripcock and the Rolling Stock Engineers did the rest!
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Jan 26, 2023 20:03:52 GMT
I realise that things age even without use, but the engineers' trains seem to have an easy life. Whilst the Bakerloo trains have been racing up and down one line or another, all day every day, for the past 50 years, the engineers' trains are lucky to do one return trip a night on five nights of the week!
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Post by Chris M on Jan 26, 2023 22:13:25 GMT
I realise that things age even without use, but the engineers' trains seem to have an easy life. Whilst the Bakerloo trains have been racing up and down one line or another, all day every day, for the past 50 years, the engineers' trains are lucky to do one return trip a night on five nights of the week! However the trains they haul can be much heavier and jerkier than passenger trains (multiple units are much smoother accelerating than unpowered wagons), some components last longer with regular use than intermittent use and the passenger trains will receive more and more frequent maintenance than the battery locos. The two fleets are designed and used very differently so any comparison between them cannot be completely reliable.
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Post by brigham on Jan 27, 2023 17:33:58 GMT
It is a bit of an odd question to ask what is reason for scoping. Not if you aren't familiar with the term, it isn't. 'Scoping' where I live means an organized trawl of the charity shops!
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Post by jimbo on Jan 27, 2023 18:22:52 GMT
Indeed there is, as a colleague of mine is going on to it. I thought the scoping had been done some time back; it is known what is wanted to do what, and when, and how many. Was done before covid, a couple of years before that even. The usual problem of money, procrastinate, money, postpone, money, put off, money, and did I mention money is the holdup. Are you perhaps mistaking this with the "options development study" quote from previously quoted link paper of 15 December 2021. Do we know where they are heading? More of the same? Metronet introduced Network Rail trains to support surface lines track renewals. Is this still a possibility?
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Post by miff on Jan 29, 2023 8:19:49 GMT
‘Options development’ ‘Scoping’ Compare & contrast.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 29, 2023 14:35:40 GMT
I thought the scoping had been done some time back; it is known what is wanted to do what, and when, and how many. Was done before covid, a couple of years before that even. Are you perhaps mistaking this with the "options development study" quote from previously quoted link paper of 15 December 2021. No confusion at all. Not appropriate to say more.
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