Fixed Stairs Flanked By Escalators

[spsmiler]

Does anyone know of a station with a fixed stairway (without handrails) between the escalators?

St Johns Wood and St Pauls are two stations that I know of that have fixed stairways between the escalators but these have handrails - I feel sure that I've encountered some escalator shafts where the fixed stairway has conical shaped protrusions on the top of the sides (where escalators have moving belts for passengers to hold).

I ask because someone whose Shapeways 3D printing shop includes escalators has offered to add a matching fixed stairway to his catalogue but first I need to supply photos showing exactly what I would like.

As his escalators are HO scale (not OO) the fixed stairway will be a matching size.

Thanks

Simon

[Chris L]

They are to stop people sliding down the handrail.

Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.[/quote]

[AndrewPSSP]

For what it's worth I did see something similar at Warren St.. can't remember if it's exactly as you describe but the "handrail" was one of the moving belts with the conical bolts

[spsmiler]

Feb 12, 2023 21:20:15 GMT AndrewPSSP said:

For what it's worth I did see something similar at Warren St.. can't remember if it's exactly as you describe but the "handrail" was one of the moving belts with the conical bolts

Thank you, I will visit and take a look.

[spsmiler]

I went today, yes I saw the conical anti-slide devices but the stairway also had handrails.

[melikepie]

I'm pretty sure Highbury and Islington from the Victoria, possibly Paddington from the Bakerloo and Southgate all have stairs between the escalators

[Chris M]

I've looked through all my photos, and some that Wikimedia Commons and Google have shown me but I've not found a single example of a fixed stairway between escalators that doesn't have handrails. Some handrails are more prominent than others (from memory Blackhorse Road and St. John's Wood are examples of less prominent ones) but they all have them.
Indeed off the top of my head, I can't think of any flight of stairs longer than a few steps anywhere on TfL that doesn't have a handrail and as someone whose mobility issues are aided by handrails this is something I'm happy about. Cleaning them could sometimes be improved though.

[Chris L]

The staircases between escalators are numbered in the same sequence.

The are examples where the stairs have been replaced with an escalator.

[spsmiler]

Feb 17, 2023 14:24:19 GMT Chris M said:

I've looked through all my photos, and some that Wikimedia Commons and Google have shown me but I've not found a single example of a fixed stairway between escalators that doesn't have handrails. Some handrails are more prominent than others (from memory Blackhorse Road and St. John's Wood are examples of less prominent ones) but they all have them.
Indeed off the top of my head, I can't think of any flight of stairs longer than a few steps anywhere on TfL that doesn't have a handrail and as someone whose mobility issues are aided by handrails this is something I'm happy about. Cleaning them could sometimes be improved though.

Thank you Chris.

I feel sure that many years ago (1970s, 1980s??) I descended fixed stairs which only had the anti-slide devices - which I found to be a nuisance. This will be why they are so stuck in my memory.

I wonder though ... maybe years ago the situation was as I remember it but handrails were subsequently added because it improved safety.

Simon

[Chris L]

I think you may need to define handrails.

Do you mean like these? www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/2011-11251

or do you mean metal handrails as on a normal staircase.

[brigham]

The handrails in the photo are how I remember them. Fixed versions of the moving handrails on the escalators.
As a kid, I thought the stairs might once have been an escalator, now disused; but I later learned that they were simply provision for an extra escalator, should increased traffic require it at a future date.

[theblackferret]

I can remember from the late 1960's & early to mid 1970's a couple of locations where there were either metal fixed handrails on the stairs or no handrails at all.

In both instances, the escalators flanking the stairs were the old-fashioned slatted wood style and they audibly chugged away as you used them.

I can't recall either location's name,but as I wasn't working in London then & my regular girlfriends were all down near me in Kent, the locations narrow down to either:

1-Interchange stations from the District to the Piccadilly & less likely Northern or Bakerloo lines from arriving main-line at Charing Cross or Victoria

2-The Tube stations serving those two termini or Euston(when going to Old Trafford for Utd. home games),just possibly King's Cross as an alternate route up North/changing point

3-Stations serving the top football grounds ie Fulham Broadway,Arsenal or Upton Park-Seven Sisters would probably have had modern escalators from the start & in those days I only went to Fulham by car or bus.

[Chris L]

Feb 18, 2023 12:03:12 GMT theblackferret said:

3-Stations serving the top football grounds ie Fulham Broadway,Arsenal or Upton Park-Seven Sisters would probably have had modern escalators from the start & in those days I only went to Fulham by car or bus.

No escalators at Fulham Broadway, Arsenal or Upton Park.

[rincew1nd]

Feb 17, 2023 22:04:58 GMT Chris L said:

I think you may need to define handrails.

Do you mean like these? www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/2011-11251

I'm sure there's somewhere on Merseyrail that this still exists. I think it's one of a bank of two rather than one in three, but it's deffo that - an escalator with stairs in rather than moving steps.

[d7666]

This thread has lost me somewhere along the line.

I thought the question was
Does anyone know of a station with a fixed stairway (without handrails) between the escalators?

Surely that last post with the museum image the dark continuous band on each side of the stairs rather like an escalator IS the handrail ? The moving dark band on an actual moving escalator is the escalator handrail is it not ? Therefore the non moving dark band on the non moving stairs is equally a handrail ?

With which I agree with ChrisM upthread, they all seem to have handrails.

Or have I missed some subtle digression point on the way here ?

[Chris M]

My understanding is that Simon is asking about stairs that don't have normal metal handrails instead of/in addition to the escalator handrails, as in the photo below

(the photo was taken in 2009)

[johnlinford]

The issue is that building regulations stipulate landings every certain number of steps (depends on various features of the staircase such as width, tread height etc) to prevent you falling all the way down if you slip. This means that the handrails need to "kink" with the stairs as in the photo above. There may have been historic ones at some point but I suspect they have all been refurbished to meet accessibility criteria over time.

[theblackferret]

Looking at @chris M's photo,that's exactly the style of handrail I remember and it was probably on a comparatively short & shallow escalator & maybe in a tucked-away section of an interchange or main-line serving Tube station, thus one that saw less footfall in the working week.

It may also have been a wooden rail-I never used it,just noticed it more than once. Equally, the rail-less stairs could have been a temporary phase between wooden & metal handrails.

[rincew1nd]

Feb 18, 2023 20:38:07 GMT rincew1nd said:

Feb 17, 2023 22:04:58 GMT Chris L said:

I think you may need to define handrails.

Do you mean like these? www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/2011-11251

I'm sure there's somewhere on Merseyrail that this still exists. I think it's one of a bank of two rather than one in three, but it's deffo that - an escalator with stairs in rather than moving steps.

Found them, one with extra handrails, one without:

[Tom]

There's a set of stairs like this at Heathrow T123 as well, from the surface/Bus station level down to Ticket Hall level.

[Chris L]

I can't remember which station but one of the stairs between 2 escalators was replaced by an escalator on the Victoria line.

The stairs between escalators are all numbered in the escalator sequence.

Safety standards now dictate that all staircases have to have handrails at child height as well as normal height.

[spsmiler]

Apr 10, 2023 9:43:07 GMT Chris L said:

Safety standards now dictate that all staircases have to have handrails at child height as well as normal height.

I am assuming that this safety requirement also applies to fixed stairs alongside escalators, and on this basis it just about rules out what I wanted when I started this thread.

As I said at the start of this thread, there is someone at Shapeways who was working on creating a 3D model of a fixed stairway flanked by escalators but he was having difficulty getting the handrails right, so I wanted to show an example without handrails.

Since its not allowed anymore and what I am modelling is meant to be (sort of) modern image so I will want the fixed stairs to have the handrails.

I might scrap the whole idea or see if he can make just a fixed stairway that matches the length and step pitch of one of the escalators he already sells.

What is needed now is / are models of fixed stairways that are not in escalator shafts with two sets of handrails. A different story!

Thanks everyone for your assistance in this thread.

Simon

[rincew1nd]

One of the examples I posted above doesn't have independent handrails, so whilst it might not be permitted for new installations it must be for existing ones.

[spsmiler]

Thats something I overlooked - grandfather rights!

Thanks for the reminder.

[Chris M]

The 2013 edition of the 2010 building regulations (which seem to be the latest) state only the following regarding handrail positioning:

a. Position the top of the handrail 900mm to 1000mm from the pitch line or floor.
b. The handrail may form the top of a guarding if you can match the heights.
c. If the stairs are 1000mm or wider: provide a handrail on both sides.

Where there is full-height structural guarding, if you provide a second (lower) handrail, the vertical height from the pitch line of the steps (or the surface of the ramp) to the top of the second (lower) handrail should be 600mm.

More googling found BS 8300-2-2018 Design of an accessible and inclusive
built environment Part 2: Buildings — Code of practice section 10.3.1

Where appropriate guarding is available, such as a wall or a glass barrier, a second handrail should be provided in buildings used by the general public. The top surface of the second handrail should be 600 mm above the ramp surface or pitch line of a stair.

Although "As a code of practice, this British Standard takes the form of guidance and recommendations."

The foreword to that British Standard does refer to ISO 21542, which was being revised at the time of publication of the standard in 2018. The latest version seems to date from 2001, but I haven't found a freely available copy online and I'm not paying $163 or CHF208 to get one!