New DMIs on the JLE?

[A60stock]

<<Thread moved from Jubilee line - goldenarrow>>



Are these new? They look like they've just reprogrammed the old ones to produce a more modern arrangement? I don't think they are new

If they are new then what was the need to replace the old ones? There are still 80s DMIs in place on much of the network!

[goldenarrow]

Having had the chance to look at these in person, the LED array is definately new but the grey casing looks like it's been reused from the originals (link) as there are signs of weathering.

As for their replacement, I know there are ongoing works to upgrade comms equipment at eight stations (Southwark - West Ham) due to complete by mid-2024. In addition to addressing obsolescence, the works will also close out the last patch of stations on the line that do not currently have the capability to broadcast 'next-train' announcements. It could be that the original train describers may not have been compatible in this regard.

[d7666]

I can not answer the specific point, but in general yes we do fit new LED arrays within existing housings. There is a small workshop on the Acton site that does this sort of work, although I do not know if they were involved here.

Also, don't forget there is a progressive drift of COTS equipment through obsolesence. COTS electronics kit these days rarely has a OEM production life of more than 1-2 years, and new stock shelf life more than 5 years until depleted. In some cases there might only have ever been one single production run. So even without any other driver like need to upgrade sign information, these things will change over time. The LED arrays are COTS built up within the housing; the latter may be COTS or maybe bespoke I do not know.

COTS = commercial off the shelf

[Tom]

I'm not sure what's different other than a mix of upper and lower case lettering - which is probably implemented by software or firmware rather than by hardware.

[zbang]

Feb 24, 2023 21:06:21 GMT d7666 said:

Also, don't forget there is a progressive drift of COTS equipment through obsolesence. COTS electronics kit these days rarely has a OEM production life of more than 1-2 years, and new stock shelf life more than 5 years until depleted.

Not so sure about that. COTS in this case is a funny thing- the market for DMI-like devices is rather small, so it's in the maker's best interest to build and support something that lasts; 'course not all of them do and they fall by the wayside. Or a new technology pops up and with nobody buying the old they stop making it.

Many Single Board Computer (SBC) vendors advertize 5-10 years of availability; I'm thinking of the Arduino/ESP32/PIC based systems (which could readily run a DMI and make tea at the same time) and the x86 industrial market systems. The realm of of industrial computing is vastly different from the home/commercial world.

FWIW, Daktronics (US) was founded in 1968 and is still around making scoreboards and display panels.

[AndrewPSSP]

I've noticed that the DMIs in the deep level stations on the JLE seem to be in worse shape than the ones at the above-ground ones
I wonder why that is

[d7666]

Feb 24, 2023 22:09:54 GMT zbang said:

Not so sure about that.

But are you sure about what I do in my day job ?

I'd better not say any more.

[zbang]

Feb 24, 2023 22:41:22 GMT d7666 said:

Feb 24, 2023 22:09:54 GMT zbang said:

Not so sure about that.

But are you sure about what I do in my day job ?

Don't know much about that, but I do know what I do at mine; keeping old systems alive has been part of it for a fair while.

Perhaps better to leave it as different but still valid experiences.

[class411]

Feb 24, 2023 22:15:28 GMT AndrewPSSP said:

I've noticed that the DMIs in the deep level stations on the JLE seem to be in worse shape than the ones at the above-ground ones
I wonder why that is

It’s the pressure.

It gets to them.

[t697]

I wonder whether the JLE original DMI style deserves a Heritage nomination. The All Caps style is very much of the JLE's time, late '90s and for a static display of train destination, I'd have thought adequately readable. Given the fuss made to keep the Earl's Court light box indicator working, perhaps an All Caps DMI should be retained or a replacement with that font provided.

It's funny how corporate style changes for these things. For example just a few years previously the Central line project put in new DMIs with a very different style font, which was then apparently completely unacceptable in the 2000s when a similar style was one option offered for D stock Refurb...

[Alight]

I agree with some of the comments re: block capitals. I much prefer this style. Some of the Northern line boards still have these.

I am surprised they didn't take the opportunity to correct the "mins" on the updated Jubilee line board to "min". The new Bank platform has this format, and is currently the only LU board to have dropped the 's'. The DLR and Elizabeth line displays also use "mins" but the LO and bus DMIs use "min". I know it sounds minor, but I for one find "mins" looks a little clunky and a tad amateur given unit abbreviations are not meant to be pluralised.

[zbang]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

Various sources say that the correct abbreviation of "minutes" is "mins". Since the DMI isn't exactly showing a scientific measurement and it's really common to say "five minuteS", having the s when the time isn't one is more correct (that's standard pluralization(.

What gets me is the laziness of some programmers to not recognize when the quantity is one and remove the "s"; even in a micro-controller this isn't difficult.

(That said, I consider this on par with arguing whether to not to add milk to tea ; strong feelings either way and few will shift their opinions.)

[d7666]

Depends what they are trying to do - follow a standard or not.

min is correct if, it is a symbol, not an abbreviation, and following international standards.

SI recognise the minute beyond defined and derived units, and ISO 31 specifies min.

As far as an abbreviation as opposed to symbol is concerned, AFAIK there is no definition, and I'm not going to get debate that other than that if there is no definition there can be no hard view on it.

If it is supposed to be a symbol, then symbols follow the rules of arithmetic not the rules of grammar; symbols do not change on pluralisation; therefore programmers who put 's' into plurals are wrong, should not be there in the first place to remove; min is correct symbol for single and multiple minutes. And with a space between the quantity and symbol. (Applies in all cases of all symbols for all units of all quantities.)

IMHO once you start to follow standards e.g. visibility for impaired persons, then you can't pick and choose which standards to follow and which to ignore; and if there is not one (for abbreviations) then follow the most applicable (in this case use symbols). And often one standard assumes or references other standards, and so on.

[zbang]

FWIW, an example in the Cambridge Dictionary is "Cooking time required: 30–35 mins." whereas Oxford says "Cook for 8–10 min. until tender."

In this case, it's a matter of style and the reader's comprehension, not exact correctness.

[Chris M]

As someone whose eyesight is not perfect (and probably needs new glasses) I prefer "mins" as it makes it easier to distinguish 1 minute from multiple minutes.

[trt]

I have to say that some of the information boards around our transport network are less than user friendly - I'd say that like the QWERTY keyboard the information has been deliberately designed to be less easy to digest. This doesn't apply to the DMIs on the JLE of course, so wandering of-topic, but a particular bugbear is putting train departures in time order from left to right, then putting the current time (the clock) as far right as possible. It means that in order to gather the information about how long there is until the next train to your destination departs you have to scan the entire departures board or look at your watch/phone; in any event, it slows you down, and this seems deliberate!

[Alight]

Feb 26, 2023 22:35:04 GMT d7666 said:

Depends what they are trying to do - follow a standard or not.

Well the TfL Corporate style guide says not to pluralise unit symbols, so if this extends to DMIs then they are in breech. That being said, provided the information is understandable by the masses, it's probably not worth updating for the sake of it. All I'm thinking is if they are going to take the trouble to modify the JLE screens, they might as well drop the "s" on "min" as it will probably only take a few secs (see what I did there!) to do so, and would at least be in keeping with their own style guide.

[Chris M]

Feb 28, 2023 10:58:36 GMT trt said:

a particular bugbear is putting train departures in time order from left to right, then putting the current time (the clock) as far right as possible. It means that in order to gather the information about how long there is until the next train to your destination departs you have to scan the entire departures board or look at your watch/phone; in any event, it slows you down, and this seems deliberate!

I was at Cannon Street mainline station earlier today and I couldn't see a clock displaying the current time anywhere in view of the departure boards. This was particularly unhelpful as the severe disruption to services from that station this evening meant that trains were not departing in scheduled order and the range of scheduled departure times shown spanned about 90 minutes.

[trt]

For some reason the DMIs on Euston platforms 8-11 national rail have the time's seconds digits in bold and the hours and minutes in non-bold. I can't figure that one out at all.

[d7666]

Mar 1, 2023 0:17:41 GMT Chris M said:

mainline station earlier today and I couldn't see a clock displaying the current time anywhere in view of the departure boards. This was particularly unhelpful as the severe disruption

Indeed. Several locations over time had that experience. Sure there is somewhere on my regular travels, can't think now where it is, I'll be sure to remember the next tine it gets me.

[rincew1nd]

My local station has two analogue clocks plus a digital clock at the bottom of the departure board.

All three display different times.

[zbang]

"The operator of the lift in a department store was tired of being asked the time, so he installed a clock. People stopped asking the time and instead asked 'Is that clock right'?"

[trt]

Mar 2, 2023 16:55:34 GMT zbang said:

"The operator of the lift in a department store was tired of being asked the time, so he installed a clock. People stopped asking the time and instead asked 'Is that clock right'?"

To be fair, as it travels up and down so much through a gravity well, you have to take relativity into account.

[d7666]

Mar 2, 2023 13:44:14 GMT rincew1nd said:

People in Wavertree can actually tell the time ?

[rincew1nd]

Well I live there and I can tell the time.

Anyway, perhaps it's best we get back on topic please?

[goldenarrow]

Further installations observed at West Ham and North Greenwich