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Post by mattdickinson on Mar 10, 2023 8:56:58 GMT
TfL are to scrap paper tickets by 2024, according to a MyLondon report. It's unclear whether its magnetic tickets that will stop being issued, with barcoded tickets issued instead, or paper tickets entirely abolished and the remaining tickets replaced by app based products. It also states that TfL platform tickets are to be abolished. |
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Post by zbang on Mar 10, 2023 17:27:08 GMT
Lots of transit agencies are dropping paper but they run headlong into the problems that not everyone has or will use a mobile phone app, not everyone has a credit/debit touch card, and not everyone can pay the fee for a transit card (now £7(!) for an Oyster). They make it difficult to just walk up and pay the fare in cash.
IIRC a few cities in the US have programs to waive the card fee for low-income riders and discount the fares, TfL would need something like that, too.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 11, 2023 13:19:02 GMT
I thought I saw something about QR codes. These will be printed on paper (or card) but carry a revenue enforcement advantage in that every QR code will have a different reference number which the ticketing system can use to validate the code when presented at a ticket gate - so it wont be possible to use them multiple times (ie: fraudulently).
As far as I am aware this is a feature that magnetic stripe tickets do not have.
I am hoping that this will help ensure the future of one day Travelcards, which are more flexible and passenger friendly than PAYG (pay as you go) as there will not be a need for journey time limits - you pay upfront and as long as you stay within the zones that you paid for you should never end up with a maximum fares charge leaving you stranded somewhere (spoken from bitter experience) nor have any other need to pay extra.
Many disabled people dislike journey time limits - especially wheelchair users and others who need to take rests during their journey and generally take longer to get around than the 'able bodied'. Even waiting for lifts, eg: at busy stations can add extra minutes to the journey time.
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Post by zbang on Mar 11, 2023 18:07:04 GMT
I am hoping that this will help ensure the future of one day Travelcards, which are more flexible and passenger friendly than PAYG (pay as you go) as there will not be a need for journey time limits - you pay upfront and as long as you stay within the zones that you paid for you should never end up with a maximum fares charge leaving you stranded somewhere (spoken from bitter experience) nor have any other need to pay extra. I though Travelcards were being discouraged because with PAYG fare capping they become (mostly) redundant-
"If you make several rail journeys, or a mixture of rail, bus and tram journeys in one day, daily capping is better value than buying a Day Travelcard in Zones 1-9."
Since the Travelcard value sets the cap, TCs would seem of limited use to most people; I've personally found that the case, but it's a sample of one. (As the cap week is Mon-Sun, there may be a few benefits of a TC to the person whose weekend is not Sat/Sun.)
Either way, replacing a mag stripe with a 2d barcode (which can contain a ton of info) makes a lot of sense.
There's also a tangent discussion of stored-value cards (e.g. Oyster touch or mag-stripe) vs centrally-validated cards (credit/debit touch or optically-read); that would deserve another thread.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 11, 2023 20:26:23 GMT
Fares capping is only cheaper than Travelcards because its a marketing ploy (a charade) to discourage people from using paper tickets.
When the Elizabeth line opened I bought a paper one Day Travelcard as I knew that if I used Oyster PAYG I would fall foul of its limitations - including journey time limits and the fact that TfL do not make it possible to cancel an out of station interchange (OSI).
All it needs are "End Journey Here" card readers in ticket halls at stations which are OSI's. People who understand how the system works will understand why these are needed. Everyone else can just ignore them ... until they get caught out and learn the hard way.
The OSI concept of through linking exiting the fares paid area and entering again at a nearby station is not bad in itself but it was because of this feature that when I first used an Oystercard I fell foul of journey time limits and found myself at Uxbridge with an Oystercard that had charged me a maximum fare.
In short, I had made a mistake in believing the TfL promotional blurb about fares capping and fell through an unadvertised loophole in the system. I only had £10 on me, and therefore I had to feed that to my Oystercard and go without lunch. Perhaps what I should have done is jump the barriers and if caught during my journey told the ticket inspector to take me to a court of law and that in my defence I would cite the Oyster system and fares capping as 'not fit for purpose'.
btw my journeys were Gants Hill - Bank. Pop out the station for about 5 minutes, and then continue on to Uxbridge. I made sure that the Bank - Uxbridge trip was within the (then) 2 hour limit but did not realise that I was being charged for a through journey from Gants Hill.
Another reason for using paper tickets which have been bought using cash is that there is no paper trail of your every journey. Its a civil liberty issue - something that would also deserve another thread. I would expect QR tickets to also be anonymous, especially if bought using cash - which some ticket machines still do accept.
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Post by zbang on Mar 12, 2023 6:30:13 GMT
We have two separate parts, a "loophole" journey and a privacy concern.
First, it's been eight months I was last in London, but I used my touch card all the time and from the card statements it was obvious that fares were being capped, both daily and weekly. IIRC when I checked, it was at or below the travelcard rate. (That's why I didn't bother getting a travelcard.) OTOH I was probably never outside zone 4. Using the TfL travelcard calculator, a zone 1-4 daily card is £15.20 whilst the PAYG cap is £11.70 (zone 1-2 daily cap is £8.10). Not sure how that is a charade.
You may have found a particular case where the system didn't behave as desired; that doesn't change the maths above. You also may have hit an oddity at Bank- I don't recall if there are parts of the station which aren't connected inside the fare gates*, and exiting/reentering the station seemed like a normal interchange. If you had reentered the system at another station, it probably would have worked as desired (two separate journeys).
*I know there are some where you exit one gate, walk maybe 10m, and enter another of the same station.
I still don't see how for the majority of people that a travelcard is better than PAYG with fare capping.
If one is interested in the least amount of personal tracking, then yes, cash fares are a good way to do that, but why use a travelcard then as the one card will appear for multiple journeys? Would be better to pay a single journey fare each time.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 12, 2023 10:00:30 GMT
Largely off topic, but changing form St. Lazare to St. Augustin on the Paris metro (A change that is marked as 'linked' on the map), you have to exit and re-enter three times. (You also have to walk for about ten minutes and negotiate multiple short sets of steps, but it is all underground/covered.)
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 12, 2023 20:30:41 GMT
zbang Paper Travelcards do not record that data, especially not at stations that only have free standing card readers At Bank I left the station to go somewhere nearby, but I was not out for very long. The publicity said that using Oyster would be easy - but I was caught out by something that even today is not properly advertised by TfL. In those days the fares cap was the same as the paper ODTC. Please bear in mind, this happened in circa 2002 / 2003, which was around the time when Oyster was first introduced.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 12, 2023 22:54:42 GMT
Short visits to stations that are part of an out-of-station interchange have always been a problem for Oyster, however these days the system is able to detect and rectify many errors overnight.
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Post by zbang on Mar 13, 2023 0:59:15 GMT
Happened 20 years ago, is it still a problem? And how that that generally affect the TC vs PAYG question? (In general, I don't think it does.)
According to the current OSI spreadsheet, the only Bank/Bank OSI is between "Central/Northern/DLR and Waterloo & City gatelines", so Gants Hill (Central) -> Bank (Central) & Bank (Central) (interchange somewhere) Uxbridge (Met) wouldn't seem to qualify. Of course, this could well have been different 20 years ago. Out Bank / in Cannon St would also qualify, the other OSIs from Bank are into NR stations.
There are many OSIs that are explicitly PAYG only and a few that are contactless only.
Either way, ducking out of a station to transact some business seems a bit abusive of the allowed interchange period; great if it works but not much to grouse about if it doesn't. IMHO and all that.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 13, 2023 2:22:23 GMT
The issue is that the system thinks you're making a single journey when you think you are making two journeys. It can (but does not always) arise in the following cases (where A is your origin station, B is a station that is one half of an OSI-pair, C is the other half of the OSI pair and D is a station located such that A to D via B and/or C is not a logical journey and/or exceeds the maximum journey time for an A → D journey). In all cases the time between exiting B and rentering the system is less than the OSI time limit.
A → B, B → A
A → B, B → D
A → B, C → D
A → B, C → A
This can occur when trying to game the system, but can also occur when making legitimate journeys. For example travelling from A to B, collecting something from a nearby shop and re-entering B to return to A.
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 13, 2023 11:59:57 GMT
I've had the issue when using Oyster PAYG a while back. When approaching the time cap I have popped out to reset the timer, but the system didn't recognise this; the resolution I found was to go out, buy a drink from a shop, top up by a small amount, then re-enter.
The system usually corrected these, but if not I could ring up the helpline, explain that I had some brief business outside the station, and they would then make the correction.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 13, 2023 16:47:28 GMT
You have to be careful to only do this at stations that are not out of station interchanges (OSI). During Steam On The Met weekends when the steam trains were running to Hammersmith Met I was careful to avoid Paddington (which is an OSI station) and instead do this at Royal Oak (where I did not even need to wait a minute between touching out and then back in again).
There is a perfectly legal hack to solve the OSI dilemma. Use the PAYG Oyster on a bus. This is because a bus journey always breaks an OSI. I've done it a few times (eg: at Kings Cross) leaving bus drivers somewhat bemused as to why a passenger would want to pay a fare but not travel. But on days when I know that I will reach the fares cap the bus fare does not actually cost me anything.
As an aside, bus fares breaking an OSI is a pain in the neck when interchanging between Central line Leytonstone and Goblin Leytonstone High Road - these stations are so far apart that it would be nice to catch a bus when interchanging here.
By way of contrast paying train fares do not break the 60 / 70 minute bus / tram Hoppa fares system.
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Post by xtmw on Mar 14, 2023 11:11:18 GMT
Personally, I think LU should do what National Rail do, barcode tickets (but that would involve updating gateline) or add tickets/Oyster cards to Apple Wallet/Samsung Wallet, etc. Some may argue that contactless cards can be used in Wallet apps, but I do see the advantages of Oyster cards/tickets being added to Wallet apps (although not entirely sure if this is even possible). Feel free to let me know your thoughts...
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 14, 2023 12:14:09 GMT
Feel free to let me know your thoughts... I believe tfl have royally b*ggered up contactless. Whichever method you use, you can't get all the discounts to which you are entitled. With Oyster, you don't benefit from the weekly cap. There's no excuse for this. It's just a matter of post-processing the data that they have (and indeed, send you, if you have an Oyster card account). With CC/DC, you can't add railcards. Again, there is no reasonable excuse for this. If they can instantly access databases to validate CC/DD/Phone payments, why can't they have a server to interrogate to determine if a particular card is linked to a railcard? I have not yet heard a plausible reason for this from someone who understands the IT involved (although I've heard many spurious reasons from those who clearly don't). |
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Post by zbang on Mar 14, 2023 19:38:20 GMT
With Oyster, you don't benefit from the weekly cap. There's no excuse for this. It's just a matter of post-processing the data that they have (and indeed, send you, if you have an Oyster card account). AFAICT PAYG Oyster does cap fares at daily/weekly/monthly- that's well-marketed and it would quite surprising if it didn't work. Wouldn't take much for someone to do a controlled experiment and see- simply make four zone 1-2 journeys in a day with an Oystercard and see how much is spent (4 * £2.70=£10.80 or £8.10 for one-day anytime TC).
With CC/DC, you can't add railcards. Again, there is no reasonable excuse for this. If they can instantly access databases to validate CC/DD/Phone payments, why can't they have a server to interrogate to determine if a particular card is linked to a railcard? (using "touch-card" and "contactless" as synonyms)
As I understand the processing, the Oyster and touch-card (credit/debit/device) data flows are completely different. That is, once the reader and controller determines that the read is from an Oyster, the data goes (and comes) from the Oyster processing back-end. With the touch-card, there is no data going back into the card so pretty much all that's needed at the gate is knowing if the card is valid; everything else happens at end-of-day processing*. Linking a server-stored railcard with the touch-card processing would require some non-trivial database connections and have non-trivial privacy implications.
(AFAIK one company (Cubic?) operates the Oyster back-end and another operates the touch-card back-end.)
*TfL takes the risk of a card being invalidated during the day or being over its limit; I expect that this was well-analysed and the cost of letting a few go through unpaid is much less than the cost of processing the transactions at the end of each journey. This gets into the weeds of card processing.
From a two year old article (https://www.mobility-payments.com/2021/09/29/in-depth-contactless-transactions-soar-but-transport-for-london-affirms-that-oyster-will-remain-a-payments-option/)
When that happens, I'd say linking railcards to contactless becomes much more possible. No idea how the project is going, haven't bothered to look.
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Post by 35b on Mar 15, 2023 8:09:27 GMT
Personally, I think LU should do what National Rail do, barcode tickets (but that would involve updating gateline) or add tickets/Oyster cards to Apple Wallet/Samsung Wallet, etc. Some may argue that contactless cards can be used in Wallet apps, but I do see the advantages of Oyster cards/tickets being added to Wallet apps (although not entirely sure if this is even possible). Feel free to let me know your thoughts... The issue with barcodes is that they take noticeably longer to read at the barrier. |
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Post by rsdworker on Mar 15, 2023 16:40:45 GMT
in netherlands a OV card that covers all transport but also speical card for one off trips or other so how works that is user taps in and taps off with one off card which can be kept as memory however QR codes can be ideal but problem is takes time to read them - if they had something a simple for single ride or one way trip there should be a dispoable card - with no long data inside just point to point
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Post by zbang on Mar 16, 2023 0:30:22 GMT
The issue with barcodes is that they take noticeably longer to read at the barrier. Do they? Which codes and which reader/barrier?
A lot depends on the reader- the systems used by parcel companies and airports are rather spritely, and even 2d codes should read at 20+ per second even in motion. Perhaps the issue isn't that they're barcodes but the specifics of the setup.
A 500ms read time would be in the same range as reading a chip and an acceptable speed for the user. (I find many chip readers are too slow; in the 2-3 second range at times.)
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Post by 35b on Mar 16, 2023 6:53:07 GMT
The issue with barcodes is that they take noticeably longer to read at the barrier. Do they? Which codes and which reader/barrier?
A lot depends on the reader- the systems used by parcel companies and airports are rather spritely, and even 2d codes should read at 20+ per second even in motion. Perhaps the issue isn't that they're barcodes but the specifics of the setup.
A 500ms read time would be in the same range as reading a chip and an acceptable speed for the user. (I find many chip readers are too slow; in the 2-3 second range at times.)
Yes, but I’ve noticed that the glass on readers is often scratched while the position (remember, it can’t be too close to a contactless reader) means it is not always easy to see and adjust the barcode to the reader. That is the basis for my empirical observation, not the speed of the technology taking the scan and processing it. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 16, 2023 9:18:39 GMT
indeed, in my (very limited) experience it's much harder to position a barcode in the correct position to be read than it is a contactless or oyster card. The latter can be done without holding it still and without needing to look, neither of which seem to be possible with barcodes.
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Post by revupminster on Mar 16, 2023 9:58:47 GMT
TfL are to scrap paper tickets by 2024, according to a MyLondon report. It's unclear whether its magnetic tickets that will stop being issued, with barcoded tickets issued instead, or paper tickets entirely abolished and the remaining tickets replaced by app based products. It also states that TfL platform tickets are to be abolished. I've been gone 20 years and I thought platform tickets had gone before I left. BR stations don't have them anymore not out on GWR where many stations are unmanned. Anyway Quiz question. What LT station issued return platform tickets the same price as a usual platform ticket? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 16, 2023 10:03:07 GMT
Anyway Quiz question. What LT station issued return platform tickets the same price as a usual platform ticket? Earl's Court? |
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Post by revupminster on Mar 16, 2023 11:07:24 GMT
Anyway Quiz question. What LT station issued return platform tickets the same price as a usual platform ticket? Earl's Court? Correct. People used the upper walkway at the station as a shortcut between Earls Court Road and Warwick Road. I don't know why they didn't use the side roads. Bad weather maybe? I don't know if I ever sold one when I occasionally worked there. |
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Post by zbang on Mar 16, 2023 16:51:36 GMT
Dirty and scratched scan windows would definitely be a problem (though more environmental than technology).
(I prefer the touch-cards since they read in any flat orientation and are far more robust than a slip of paper.)
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 16, 2023 20:44:08 GMT
Are you allowed to use platform tickets if you walk between two stations?
eg: Moorgate - Liverpool Street, Farringdon - Barbican, Bank- Monument?
All of these are walkable whilst inside the fares paid zones!
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Post by 35b on Mar 17, 2023 7:45:12 GMT
Dirty and scratched scan windows would definitely be a problem (though more environmental than technology). (I prefer the touch-cards since they read in any flat orientation and are far more robust than a slip of paper.) My experiences are with using the code from a wallet app on my phone, where the phone automatically maximises screen brightness on opening the wallet. That phone is also used for Contactless payments. Suffice it to say that I enter the Tube far faster than I exit the mainline platforms. |
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cso
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Post by cso on Mar 17, 2023 17:36:20 GMT
The issue with barcodes is that they take noticeably longer to read at the barrier. My experience reading barcodes in Amsterdam last week would not seem to agree with that; it read them quite quickly - as did the readers on the trams. If you want to use a 'paper' ticket in Amsterdam, at least, you pay an addition €1 from what I could tell last week, but it's not a paper ticket in the strictest sense, as it has some form of RFID built in to it. |
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Post by melikepie on Oct 31, 2023 9:46:46 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 31, 2023 11:33:29 GMT
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