Naming the LO lines

[brigham]

Mar 29, 2023 13:07:03 GMT A60stock said:

Don't forget that the Crossrail lines will also need to be individually coloured once there is a second Crossrail in operation...

 That one could be called the McEnroe Line.

Because you can NOT be serious...

[metman]

I think the naming of lines is unnecessary personally.

If you need to distinguish perhaps letters should be looked at?

Some services are more obvious than others. Where does the South London line end and the East London Line start? Where does the West London line end? What do you call the Enfield and Cheshunt route??

[Chris L]

Mar 30, 2023 12:01:45 GMT metman said:

I think the naming of lines is unnecessary personally.

If you need to distinguish perhaps letters should be looked at?

Some services are more obvious than others. Where does the South London line end and the East London Line start? Where does the West London line end? What do you call the Enfield and Cheshunt route??

The Mayor has promised names not letters or numbers.

Let's hope they keep the names short and sweet.

[trt]

I really don't believe in naming public infrastructure after individuals. Street and road names in particular. Causes way too many problems down the line. Nomenclature should be usefully descriptive or from a neutral source. For example lists of flower names, animals, trees, birds, colours, Greek letters etc. creating a distinct but related set of names.

I mean, as this is the overground bit of the underground, why not:
Bulgaria, Tobermory, Cholet, Orinoco, Wellington, Tomsk etc?
There's also a whole load of others in that theme... Adelaide, Alexandria, Amsterdam, Atlanta, Bermondsey, Jamaica, Normandy, Ontario, Serengeti, Tokyo, Yellowstone etc.

[castlebar]

Naming lines can too easily become political

Some dictators, once favoured fall out of favour very quickly when their misdeeds are discovered (remember the Ceaușescus in Romania?)
Re-naming after such mistakes will cost more than the initial naming

[Tom]

Mar 29, 2023 22:14:19 GMT spsmiler said:

Edgware Road - Upminster services are never normally provided, even though they are technically possible.

But that wouldn't be a District Line service, as it would have to travel over the 'Circle line' section of track between High Street Kensington and Gloucester Road. LU would describe it as a Circle line train on departure from Edgware Road, before it magically becomes a District Line train at some convenient point before Tower Hill.

[d7666]

Mar 30, 2023 12:01:45 GMT metman said:

I think the naming of lines is unnecessary personally.

If you need to distinguish perhaps letters should be looked at?

I favour something like the 4 letter route indicator words as used on Paris RER lines.

Do not have to be real words but pronounceable and memorable.

But "not invented here" so it won't happen.

Yes, I know those Paris words are route indicators and not line names, but London Overground route service patterns lend themselves /mostly/ to a single indicator for each direction as their are minimal short workings and no complexicated inter route working.

What is not needed is wordy meaningless multi syllable line names that just increase waffle in audio and visual messages at the expense of key information, and add more clutter to maps.

[trt]

Re: Clutter on information boards and communication theory.

They have new displays on the platforms at Euston, replacing the orange DMI boards. Forget what I earlier said about them not putting the real-time clock on the top left next to the time of the next departure because people will run for the train... these ones on the platform, arguably a slippier and more dangerous part of the station, now have a countdown timer!

[theblackferret]

I'd agree with eliminating names-too complicated for a number of reasons. One of which is,when it comes under TFL's aegis it comes up against all the existing named Underground lines-definite information overload.

Initial letters A-M(I omitted) will suffice-train/timetable head-codes could easily adapt, if desired, to AA full service:AS short:AE express or AP for part ie branch service.

On the map,either print a,b,c,d. etc into the orange line in black/dark blue etc or print orange a,b,c,d etc between black lines.

Alternately, to consider the Mayor's wishes,we could use Roman numerals instead,given they founded London and their legionnaires were from a very diverse background,too.

[Chris L]

The Mayor's instruction is to select names that reflect London's diversity.

There is no point suggesting letters or numbers in any combination.

Mod edit [Dstock7080]: Quote edited. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.

[trt]

Isn't there something about the rainbow board being in alphabetic order? Or was I just imagining this?

[Chris M]

When the rainbow board was manual it was always in alphabetical order. Now its electronic, lines with disruption are grouped alphabetically at the top with other lines alphabetically a at the bottom (but usually just labelled as "all other lines").
Whatever new names are chosen, I can't imagine that they will be listed other than alphabetically but whether that would be as e.g. "Goblin" or as "London Overground - Goblin" is not yet clear.

[A60stock]

If any sense/logic is used in naming them, it should simply be what they're known as generally:

Watford-Euston Line or Watford DC line (Or make it part of the Bakerloo line from a branding perspective but the operations can remain totally separate - would just be the case that trains to Watford only run to and from Euston, same as how Trains to edgware road on the district only run to Wimbledon)
North London Line or North & West London Line (The Hammersmith & City Line has an & in it so don't see why this can't be done again)
East London Line(as it was known as anyway) or East & South London line
Lea Valley Line (Not sure what else it's known as)
Gospel Oak and Barking Line

Yes i know in some cases the East London Line is not in East London and the North London Line is not in North london, but 99% of people looking at the map are not going to get confused when travelling from say Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction just because its called East London Line.

Its in no way much different to using the victoria line from Oxford Circus to Walthamstow which technically isnt a Victoria line because it does not serve Victoria or the Northern line going south from Kennington which is technically a Southern line!

[croxleyn]

I would think that names are going to be far too bulky on an already cluttered map. My suggestion is a single letter, followed by a number for its destination. So for the Met line, Baker St might be M0. Aldgate M1, Amersham M2, Chesham M3, Watford M4, Uxbridge M5. Maps would then have all letter/number pairs (or maybe M2-5 northbound until HOH) repeated along the line with an arrow direction, and destination displays would also include the final. Rather like a bus map. I remember arriving at Preston, wanting a tight connection to the next branch line station. Finding someone to ask, I was told in broad Mancunian accent the 'Azel (Hazel) Grove line. It would have taken ages to watch the multitude of stops listed on the scrolling display - in fact that's near the airport on the other side of the city.

[Chris M]

croxleyn, as noted multiple times already in this thread, the mayor has stated the lines are getting names and so the lines will be getting names. They will not be getting letters, numbers or a combination of letters and numbers. Suggesting anything other than names is guaranteed to be wrong and a waste of time.

[brigham]

Mar 30, 2023 18:35:56 GMT castlebar said:

Naming lines can too easily become political

That's the whole idea.

The lines will be given names to make a political point.

Clarity is of secondary importance.

[Dom K]

It would be a real shame to lock this thread. Let’s remember this forum has ZERO tolerance to Political discussion, even if it’s hinted at. This thread has already had a few moderator interceptions. Anymore could result in the thread being locked.

Thank you

[melikepie]

Does anyone know when these new names will be announced?

[spsmiler]

Mar 31, 2023 10:31:21 GMT Chris L said:

The Mayor's instruction is to select names that reflect London's diversity.

I did not know that - but am not surprised to learn this.

I would rather that this was not so, but am hoping that the East London Line is renamed Brunel and the Goblin line retains this name, as uniquely amongst the Overground services it is a well-known name that is also directly connected with the service ... the Overground's equivalent of Bakerloo! 

As for the other routes, I await hearing their chosen names with interest and a degree of trepidation. I just hope that they are all universally acclaimed, popular and non-controversial - such as the names of successful award-winning London athletes / sports people!

As an aside, I wish that the various DLR services were also given names, it would have the potential to reduce confusion at stations such as Stratford! 


edit to add: To avoid confusion with the Met's service to Watford the LO Euston - Watford service should not be called the Watford line

[castlebar]

I think "customers" would like to know where a train is going,
not the name of the line it is on,
and probably a name difficult to tie in with the train's destination
The "Brunel Line" or anything like it will cause maximum confusion.
Most Londoners do not know who Brunel was, let alone visitors.

"Crossrail" was fairly obvious, but "Elizabeth Line" is not.

By 'inventing' names for lines, the scope for confusion has endless possibilities

[Tom]

Sitting here with a 1992 London Connections map, I'm inclined to suggest the following slightly tongue-in-cheek names:
Richmond to Stratford: North London Line
Clapham Junction to Stratford: West London Line
Clapham Junction/West Croydon/Crystal Palace to Highbury and Islington: South London Lines
New Cross to Highbury: East London Line
Liverpool Street to Cheshunt/Enfield Town/Chingford: West Anglia Lines

Just need to think of something for the Gospel Oak to Barking, Upminster to Romford, and Euston to Watford services now...

[castlebar]

Apr 1, 2023 19:17:45 GMT Tom said:

Sitting here with a 1992 London Connections map, I'm inclined to suggest the following slightly tongue-in-cheek names:
Richmond to Stratford: North London Line
Clapham Junction to Stratford: West London Line

Already we have confusion which will become total chaos

Richmond is not in North London. Neither is
Stratford is not in West London,

I think you have proved my point.

[Tom]

True... but!

The traditional 'North London Line' ran from Richmond to Broad Street, which in Network SouthEast days ended up being diverted to North Woolwich.
Likewise, the line between Clapham and Willesden is still commonly referred to as the West London Line.

On the Underground we have similar issues - the southernmost part of the network is on the Northern line, the Circle line isn't a circle any more, and the Jubilee was so named as a reference to an event that took place two years before the line opened! These inconsistencies exist everywhere and we cope with them just fine. The point is that if you're at Stratford you know that the North London Line goes to Richmond and the West London Line goes to Clapham. Ultimately, that's all that matters.

I did say they were slightly tongue-in-cheek...

[Chris M]

Apr 1, 2023 17:33:21 GMT castlebar said:

The "Brunel Line" or anything like it will cause maximum confusion.
Most Londoners do not know who Brunel was, let alone visitors.

"Crossrail" was fairly obvious, but "Elizabeth Line" is not.

However true this is or isn't, it doesn't matter, nobody has any objections to the London Underground lien names, despite:
"Bakerloo" being completely meaningless, made-up word
"Central" and "Piccadilly" serving more stations that are not central or in Piccadilly than which are, and not being the only lines to serve those areas
"Circle" not being a Circle
"District" and "Metropolitan" being incredibly vague
"Hammersmith & City" serving more than those two places, offering at most a quarter of trains to Hammersmith, and the District (and very nearly Piccadilly) also serving both named locations.
"Jubilee" and "Victoria" offering no hints as to its geographical or even transport relevance (the Elizabeth line also fits here)

The Waterloo & City is either accurate or not depending whether you regard "Bank" as serving the entire City of London. The Docklands Light Railway is the best route between Stratford and Lewisham, two places that are not in the Docklands, and yet people cope - true it's more often called the "DLR" these days, for which I refer you to the Bakerloo, Jubilee and Victoria lines.

[class411]

Name them after ancient kings. I like the sound of.the ‘Æthelred’ line.

Of course, there might be delays.

[35b]

Apr 1, 2023 21:01:44 GMT Chris M said:

Apr 1, 2023 17:33:21 GMT castlebar said:

The "Brunel Line" or anything like it will cause maximum confusion.
Most Londoners do not know who Brunel was, let alone visitors.

"Crossrail" was fairly obvious, but "Elizabeth Line" is not.

However true this is or isn't, it doesn't matter, nobody has any objections to the London Underground lien names, despite:
"Bakerloo" being completely meaningless, made-up word
"Central" and "Piccadilly" serving more stations that are not central or in Piccadilly than which are, and not being the only lines to serve those areas
"Circle" not being a Circle
"District" and "Metropolitan" being incredibly vague
"Hammersmith & City" serving more than those two places, offering at most a quarter of trains to Hammersmith, and the District (and very nearly Piccadilly) also serving both named locations.
"Jubilee" and "Victoria" offering no hints as to its geographical or even transport relevance (the Elizabeth line also fits here)

The Waterloo & City is either accurate or not depending whether you regard "Bank" as serving the entire City of London. The Docklands Light Railway is the best route between Stratford and Lewisham, two places that are not in the Docklands, and yet people cope - true it's more often called the "DLR" these days, for which I refer you to the Bakerloo, Jubilee and Victoria lines.

DLR was named as such when a small light railway started in 1987. Most of the line names came out of the names of their original companies, either directly (Central London Railway -> Central) or indirectly (Baker Street & Waterloo -> Bakerloo). Similarly, North London Line has meaning going back to its pre-Grouping history, even if bits of it are in no way “north”.

The one that’s awkward is Crossrail/Elizabeth Line, because it existed as Crossrail for so long that the “Elizabeth Line” name has had to climb the barrier of deeply ingrained usage.

I remember “Harlequin” for the DC lines; it was artificial when it was introduced and sank with little trace when the marketing usage stopped.

As my experience is that existing line names help them that know, but visitors refer to the line colours, my hopes of this initiative are low.

[trainwizard]

Apr 1, 2023 21:01:44 GMT Chris M said:

"Bakerloo" being completely meaningless, made-up word

(as I'm sure you know) It's a portmanteau of Baker Street and Waterloo and yet the Bakerloo is no longer the fastest route between the two stations.

Apr 2, 2023 0:59:17 GMT class411 said:

Name them after ancient kings. I like the sound of.the ‘Æthelred’ line.

Of course, there might be delays.

I like it, but I fear the public would be unready for such a name.

Apr 1, 2023 17:33:21 GMT castlebar said:

I think "customers" would like to know where a train is going,
not the name of the line it is on,
and probably a name difficult to tie in with the train's destination
The "Brunel Line" or anything like it will cause maximum confusion.
Most Londoners do not know who Brunel was, let alone visitors.

I think that the name itself does not matter as much, but rather its ability to be remembered and recognised (and tbh how well TfL brands it). The majority of the lines today offer no information about the route of the line, yet they are so well used. Most tourists refer to lines by their colour (another reason to give each line its own colour), and many don't care about the names, so their interests are less important than those of Londoners that use the tube regularly. A name such as Goblin is much more memorable than the North London Line, which is a mouthful and will easily be confused with the Northern line. Plus, it is much harder to name a line with multiple branches after where the train is going, compared to a line such as the (currently named) Watford DC, where the line goes from Watford to Central London. Even historically, long railway names have now been shortened, as 35b  has pointed out.

I learned about Brunel for nearly 2 months in Year 2, and I'm sure many others around London have as well. Whether students retain the information they learn at a young age is not a discussion relevant to this forum, but its clear Brunel is not an unknown name. And if most Londoners don't know who Brunel is, it's a great opportunity to teach them. There was a time when Harry Beck's name was unknown to nearly everyone, and now his name is on the tube map, and many Londoners are aware his contribution to the tube map. Brunel revolutionised Britain's railways, and such a naming would be well-deserved, as well as fitting due to the Thames tunnel that he and his father built.

Apr 1, 2023 17:04:56 GMT spsmiler said:

To avoid confusion with the Met's service to Watford the LO Euston - Watford service should not be called the Watford line

While I disagree, (Piccadilly Heathrow trains don't get confused with the Liz line or Heathrow Express) I do feel it wouldn't be productive to continue endlessly arguing about the same topic and offering the same points repeatedly.
So, what would some alternatives be? Would a name such as the Watford Local or Watford & City have enough differentiation from the Met service. Perhaps the lines could be unofficially referred to the Watford Local and Watford Metropolitan for clarification. I have heard the portmanteau Waston/Watson being suggested as an alternative.

[quex]

Apr 2, 2023 8:36:41 GMT trainwizard said:

There was a time when Harry Beck's name was unknown to nearly everyone, and now his name is on the tube map, and many Londoners are aware his contribution to the tube map.

Ironically his name wasn't Harry - it was Henry.

A letter/number-based route designation is, IMHO, the most logical and straightforward solution, but equally I accept that the Mayor looks to be going down the names route. But I think there is scope to compromise - if names are carefully selected, they can be abbreviated to corresponding single letters. As illustrative examples, say

Richmond to Stratford becomes the Acton or A line,
Clapham to Stratford becomes the Brompton or B line, etc.

Or some alternative with names, e.g. the "Brunel line" could be refrred to as the "B line" (where appropriate).

[Chris L]

Apr 2, 2023 17:54:31 GMT quex said:

A letter/number-based route designation is, IMHO, the most logical and straightforward solution, but equally I accept that the Mayor looks to be going down the names route. But I think there is scope to compromise - if names are carefully selected, they can be abbreviated to corresponding single letters. As illustrative examples, say

Suggestions for letters/numbers were produced several years ago and not implemented.

The time for compromise has passed and the Mayor issued his direction to use names.

[class411]

At least if they give the lines proper names it will get rid of the ‘Goblin’, which I find more annoying than ‘Wimbleware’. Particularly as people so often refer to it as the Goblin line, which yields Gospel Oak to Barking Line line.