Ruislip Piccadilly Line Depot?

[jimbo]

A recent post mentioned the connection between the Piccadilly and Central Lines at Ruislip Depot provided to reduce construction costs of Stage I of the Jubilee Line to Charing Cross. Ruislip Depot was a pre-War New Works project, completed after the War. The Piccadilly connection was always part of the project since the new depot would have provided accommodation for both lines, with crew rooms on two levels, one for each line. Of course, the Piccadilly part was never used, and allowed the engineering vehicles to move in over the years. I wonder why a Piccadilly depot was considered necessary here pre-War, but not post-War?

[castlebar]

DON'T shoot the messenger! I'm only reporting facts

If you research, you will find that it has long been (50 years?) an ambition of Hillingdon and Uxbridge politicians, (even at MP level) to run Central Line trains to Uxbridge, via Ruislip.

There have been several posts on this subject, on this site, over some (10+?) years.

It CAN be done, but is deemed too difficult and not cost effective, irrespective of the likely demand.

This is a case where those who could do something about it seem to find "reasons why NOT" rather than "reasons why".
It was noted in the past that those who were most vocal AGAINST it, do not live within 15 miles of it and would never use it.
But they are the majority of Londoners

[Harsig]

Mar 27, 2023 2:35:42 GMT jimbo said:

A recent post mentioned the connection between the Piccadilly and Central Lines at Ruislip Depot provided to reduce construction costs of Stage I of the Jubilee Line to Charing Cross. Ruislip Depot was a pre-War New Works project, completed after the War. The Piccadilly connection was always part of the project since the new depot would have provided accommodation for both lines, with crew rooms on two levels, one for each line. Of course, the Piccadilly part was never used, and allowed the engineering vehicles to move in over the years. I wonder why a Piccadilly depot was considered necessary here pre-War, but not post-War?

I always understood that the accommodation for Piccadilly trains was never constructed, and would have effectively formed a separate depot, built on the fields adjacent to the Uxbridge branch, between the Central line bridge and Ickenham station. These fields were then in LT ownership and are largely still owned by TfL.
The proposals were still active post-war and powers for construction of the depot were obtained (along with other improvements between Acton Town and Hanger Lane Junction and at Rayners Lane) in 1947 but financial constraints of the day prevented any progress being made on any of these schemes.

A sketch of the 1948 version of the proposed depot appeared in Underground News No. 248 (on page 167): Underground News No. 248

[jimbo]

I don't recall seeing that diagram before. I always imagined Ruislip would have become a two lines mixed depot like Neasden. Around 1980 I visited the two storey crew rooms with the ground floor used by the Central Line. I presume the upper floor would have been used by the Picc Line within a reasonable walk of the intended Picc depot area.

If the current Ruislip depot was not built to service two lines, then why is it so expansive. Was it always planned to commission new fleets there? Engineers train operations have slowly transferred there over the years, taking advantage of the extensive space. Was the BR connection always planned at West Ruislip, even when Denham was the intended Central Line terminus?

[jimbo]

Lack of stabling on the Uxbridge branch remains a problem for the Piccadilly Upgrade Project, with trains having to start at Northfields Depot and reverse at Acton for the branch. This is inefficient but works with the current 24tph service, but as the upgrade works towards 36tph it will require more trains to do the move with less time between trains!

This is a reason why South Harrow sidings were relaid to provide twice the roads in the same area. Consideration is also being given to relay sidings at Ealing Broadway, which will become a Piccadilly branch. This could relieve pressure at Acton in the mornings if used for Piccadilly Line trains, or relieve pressure with evening Ealing Depot stablers if used for District Line trains.

[towerman]

There used to be around 6 Picc trains stabled at Uxbridge is there no longer the space for them?

[Tom]

Mar 29, 2023 20:00:19 GMT jimbo said:

This is a reason why South Harrow sidings were relaid to provide twice the roads in the same area. Consideration is also being given to relay sidings at Ealing Broadway, which will become a Piccadilly branch.

South Harrow was remodelled as an enabler for the depot rebuilding works planned for Cockfosters and Northfields depots, which will put several roads in a possession at the same time rendering them unusable.
The current rolling stock working Mondays to Thursdays has the following stabled overnight:
Uxbridge: 1
South Harrow: 4
Northfields: 36
Arnos Grove: 6
Cockfosters: 37
Total: 84

The idea is that when the depot rebuilding works start in earnest, this will change. Whilst I don't have any figures yet, I would envisage this changing for the Northfields Depot rebuilding to something like:
Uxbridge: 1
South Harrow: 12
Northfields Sidings: 3
Northfields Depot: 25
Arnos Grove: 6
Cockfosters: 37
Total: 84

It wouldn't surprise me if a train were to stable at Acton Town, either.

Then, when Cockfosters rebuilding gets into full swing, the stock balance will change again so that Northfields is +11 stabling 36 again and Cockfosters is -11 stabling 26.
This all assumes there is no increase in train service, of course.

At present, there are no plans to reinstate stabling roads at Ealing Broadway, though I will never say never, and it wouldn't be the first time I've gone back to undo something I've previously done at work!

[Dstock7080]

Mar 29, 2023 20:43:51 GMT towerman said:

There used to be around 6 Picc trains stabled at Uxbridge is there no longer the space for them?

All 11 roads used for MET trains.
One platform is used by a PICC train.

[Tom]

I was going to add, but as Dstock7080 got there first:

Mar 29, 2023 20:43:51 GMT towerman said:

There used to be around 6 Picc trains stabled at Uxbridge is there no longer the space for them?

The SSR stabling arrangements have changed a lot over the last few years. The introduction of the S7 fleet has resulted in seven trains which used to stable at Farringdon (3), Triangle Sidings (2), Edgware Road (1) and Parsons Green (1) having to stable elsewhere. This was initially compensated by Wembley Park (5 berths), but since they closed, Neasden is now host to more S7 trains, which resulted in the displaced S8s going to Uxbridge to stable, in turn displacing 1973 stock.

Lillie Bridge has theoretically compensated for the number of berths lost, with the 5 from Wembley and 7 from elsewhere being offset by 12 at Lillie Bridge, but that hasn't taken into account any additional Jubilee stabling at Neasden or increases in fleet size.

[towerman]

The first plans for the Jubilee upgrade envisioned doubling stabling roads at Stanmore to 20,putting in extra stabling roads at SMD so that there would be very few if any 96 TS at Neasden.

[jimbo]

Whereas the current plan for ten extra Jubilee Line trains requires three more to stable at Neasden and a pit road there for maintenance. This will be achieved by moving S stock trains to Farringdon City sidings when completed.

[DWS]

The Farringdon City sidings has no funding, the extra trains for the Jubillee Line has no funding.