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Post by pauluni on Apr 13, 2023 14:27:51 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 15, 2023 21:33:50 GMT
Its great to see the 4TC set being used and (I assume) earning its keep.
At the same time its sad that none of this use is here in London.
That said, I recognise that under its skin this train is actually more relevant to the main line network than a true Underground train.
It would be great to see Sarah Siddons out on the main line again. Surely she has 'grandfather' rights to this, as she did work on the third rail main line in the British Rail era and has both a TOPS class number and is AWS fitted.
edit to add a day later ... maybe for Sarah Siddons it should be 'grandmother' rights??
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Post by bomo on Apr 18, 2023 13:56:24 GMT
These days AWS isn't enough. Sarah Siddons would need TPWS, OTMR and GSM-R fitted to run on the main line.
I don't follow the fortunes of the heritage fleet but I assume the probability of Sarah even running again on the SSL is diminishing in the face of the onward march of CBTC? I have no doubt from a technical perspective that a way could be devised to equip her with CBTC but I guess the cost of doing so means it is unlikely.
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 19, 2023 13:19:44 GMT
bomo Sarah Siddons can still run on west London surface sections of the District and Piccadilly lines that are not CBTC enabled and on the Met routes also used by Chiltern services.
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Post by d7666 on Apr 26, 2023 21:55:49 GMT
It would be great to see Sarah Siddons out on the main line again. Surely she has 'grandfather' rights to this, as she did work on the third rail main line in the British Rail era and has both a TOPS class number and is AWS fitted. But not TPWS fitted. (Or OTMR ?) (as stated upthread). Not insurmountable, but ££££. As neither TOPS nor AWS abbreviations were explained, I won't bother with TPWS or OTMR. One has to be careful with so called 'grandfather rights'. They were never automatic anyway, and nowhere near as powerful a reason as many would have you believe. Having once had a TOPS number is irrelevant. I think I am right that SS has never ever run on NetworkRail lines under NetworkRail, hauling people on a railtour etc. It ran under BR, but British Railways was abolished in 1994, and I don't think SS has so worked since then (that is a question not a statement). I suspect NetworkRail would require a complete review - and I would put money on SS would never get by on legacy rights alone. I have no doubt from a technical perspective that a way could be devised to equip her with CBTC but I guess the cost of doing so means it is unlikely. Technically yes. For £1m. That is, a 1 followed by 6 zeros. Some time back, I was informed that the cost of CBTC per vehicle type is in the region of £1000000 per type that caused a fair bit of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth re. battery locos. As that was about 10 years ago now I suggest it might be a bit more now. Not £1m per vehicle, but per type. SS being type unique (unless some wit suggests pulling JH out of Covent Garden) it would be £1m just for SS. Not sure anyone could justify that? The combination of discussion is a lot of money to run on NR and a lot lot more money to run on LU CBTC. Bear in mind too that the most accessible SW lines out of Waterloo are high on the ETCS list, that would be even more cost. Personally once 4LM CBTC is complete I favour ferrying SS to IOW for a season or two now that something a big as D78 fits (which the naysayers always said the line could only ever be tube gauge for ever more) I am sure someone could conjure up some suitable stock for it work with ..... excuse me while I run for cover. |
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Post by brigham on Apr 27, 2023 7:48:33 GMT
It needs to be remembered, that beneath the quango exteriors, both NR and LU are OUR railways.
So WHO is charging US a million quid to run on OUR railways, and on what grounds?
The Isle of Wight sounds like a good scheme.
There are still some MET rigid eight-wheelers on the island, or so I'm told...
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Post by burkitt on Apr 27, 2023 8:55:45 GMT
So WHO is charging US a million quid to run on OUR railways, and on what grounds? For the SSR, that's the amount Thales was charging to develop the software and design, supply and install the equipment required to convert Sarah Siddons to operate on 4LM CBTC. It may be a somewhat excessive sum, but it's not purely an invented access charge, and originated from neither LU nor NR. |
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Post by d7666 on Apr 27, 2023 17:21:46 GMT
This is what software and hardware and development and testing and approval and certification and RISK and LIABILITY does.
Each traction type is unique demanding its own thousands of test and development hours. It is not just a case of a few lines of code and connect a couple of wires.
Maybe Tom knows the SIL number; I sure do not; if the ATO kit is SIL4, then AIUI it has to be independently verified by a body like Lloyds.
You start moving a couple of hundred of live able people around on an ATO railway with an Edwardian traction unit on Elizabeth(2)-an stock in the 21C with S-stock trundling all round it left right and centre, and you soon find out what needs to be done to make all that work, safely, every time, every trip, every location, so that the cargo does not end up in another state than live or less able than they were when the embarked. SS unique; unique traction curve, unique braking curve, unique cab layout, unique length, and so on and on. The you have build, test, and then all the training and familiarisation, and documentation, and maintenance for ever more to address. For ONE locomotive.
Nothing is impossible, but everything needs ££££s or gold ingots to pay for it. Which is where the seven figure numbers come from.
If you need an example where $$$$ shortcuts were taken look no further than Boeing 737 MAX. Acceptable ?
Trains crashing is no more acceptable than planes falling out of the sky.
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Post by d7666 on Apr 27, 2023 17:27:43 GMT
The Isle of Wight sounds like a good scheme. There are still some MET rigid eight-wheelers on the island, or so I'm told... That was part in jest, but having thought about it, it is not as hair brained as first sight. Not sure that the 8w are air braked though are they ? Or any of the existing IOWSR stock ? Or were the BR kettles over there Westinghouse brakes for push pull ? TBH I don't know. May as well send over the ex NER ES1 Newcastle quayside BoBo as well, that can go top tail with SS. Never say no, impossible, nothing is. 10 years ago you'd have been laughed off this forum if you dared suggest D78s would be on IOW. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 27, 2023 19:20:02 GMT
Maybe Tom knows the SIL number; I sure do not; if the ATO kit is SIL4, then AIUI it has to be independently verified by a body like Lloyds. Bearing in mind that SelTrac is an integrated ATO/ATP/ATS train control system, it'll be SIL4. |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 27, 2023 21:46:52 GMT
Hmm, the hard and harsh reality of the direction our railways are going, and what it will likely mean for heritage operations. I await the first conversion of a 'kettle' locomotive to full compatibility with ETCS with interest and excitement, but won't hold my breath as its likely that I will asphyxiate well before it happens (if ever). I regret that I cannot answer whether Sarah Siddons only ran on the Southern in BR days or after privatisation too. Bear in mind too that the most accessible SW lines out of Waterloo are high on the ETCS list, that would be even more cost. It will be interesting to see what happens with the route via Southfields, etc, seeing that the main service is with LUL S Stock, which I cannot imagine being made ETCS compatible. Maybe this is when this route will get its CBTC signalling with the physical train stops then being removed. Heritage operations using a Met locomotive like Sarah Siddons and the NER ES1 Newcastle quayside BoBo have crossed my mind, albeit in model railway format. I also see a full size human passenger carrying service as technically feasible, if the entire train has compatible braking systems (air / vacuum). However, the locomotives will likely be battery powered and the railway will be a leisure / heritage line. Maybe the Co-Co LNER Woodhead 'Tommy' could join them! |
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Post by d7666 on Apr 27, 2023 22:50:11 GMT
It will be interesting to see what happens with the route via Southfields, etc, seeing that the main service is with LUL S Stock, which I cannot imagine being made ETCS compatible. Believe it or not, AIUI it is /far/ simpler than many would have you believe. In terms of train borne kit that is. Over simplyfying, grossly I add, it amounts to little more than a couple of bytes of data as to what is communicated to the train. If you think about it, CBTC and ETCS can not be that far apart, the Eliz line is (Siemens) CBTC in the core, but you can be sure the trains are ETCS ready for both the GW and GE sides. The underlying signals principles are the same. How you relay that to the train is different. The detailed work, that costs multi zero ££££, is getting to the state where it is only a couple of bytes of data different. |
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Post by Chris M on Apr 28, 2023 9:01:46 GMT
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Post by billbedford on Apr 28, 2023 11:44:27 GMT
After the next Carrington Event, only steam engines will run.
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Post by d7666 on Apr 28, 2023 18:26:50 GMT
After the next Carrington Event, only steam engines will run. What does any of that mean ? |
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Post by tjw on Apr 28, 2023 18:50:09 GMT
There are still some MET rigid eight-wheelers on the island, or so I'm told... Several are in use as beach huts, not much left I am afraid. One did get taken by the sea a few years back. You will need new under frames, and everything above under frame level will also be new timber etc. Would make a good project, you just need some money, and a skilled workforce. |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 28, 2023 20:59:32 GMT
Please send smelling salts!! As an aside, I wonder whether ETCS is as demanding as CBTC in how it controls the trains. In other words, will it not need to know the full acceleration and braking profile of every train on the line, making it less technically challenging than CBTC - so therefore easier to implement? After the next Carrington Event, only steam engines will run. yes, and possibly also diesel engines which do not need electrics to make them work But when this does happen I suspect that people will be more interested in other things than railway nostalgia. But it might be that the trains at heritage centres (etc) will be used for more serious travel purposes than 'nostalgia leisure'. |
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Post by towerman on Apr 29, 2023 8:54:19 GMT
Saw an article yesterday there’s a couple of 38TS on Alderney hauled by diesel shutters.
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Post by billbedford on Apr 29, 2023 9:30:46 GMT
The Carrington Event was a geomagnetic storm which hit the earth in September 1859. Telegraph communications around the world failed; there were reports of sparks showering from telegraph machines, shocking operators and setting papers ablaze. If such a storm hit today it would be likely to disable most of the electronic circuits we rely on. Satellites, and therefore GPS would be particularly vulnerable, as would the power grid.
Many people have calculated that this was a once in 500 year event , but newer research from Japan suggest that similar event happened in 1770, 1872 and 1912 with lesser storms hitting in 1909 and 1989 the later likely causing the Quebec Blackout of the year.
So without electronics the railways would be left with stream engines and may be some robust diesels.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 29, 2023 10:03:39 GMT
Saw an article yesterday there’s a couple of 38TS on Alderney hauled by diesel shutters. The 38TS were replaced with 59TS some while ago (2000) |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Apr 29, 2023 20:51:42 GMT
So much for the internet being up to date.😒
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Post by 35b on May 2, 2023 13:22:46 GMT
Reported today that the paperwork is not in place for passenger carrying on the pair of Swanage trips, so the tours have now been cancelled.
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Post by pauluni on Jun 22, 2023 0:19:56 GMT
The 4TC set has been replaced by the Hastings Unit for the July UKRailTours trips.
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 22, 2023 21:18:16 GMT
Thats a shame.
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