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Post by alpinejohn on Apr 15, 2023 15:21:05 GMT
From 29 August 2023 ULEZ rules will apply to pretty much every vehicle inside the M25 - which means almost all underground stations will suddenly be inside the zone except Amersham, Chalfont & Latimer, Chesham, and Chorleywood on the Metropolitan line and Epping on the Central line.
However you only need to look at many outer stations like Hillingdon (with its car parks and easy access to the M40) to see that currently they attract a lot of commuter traffic.
Whilst doubtless many of these vehicles will already meet ULEZ standards so are unlikely to change their routine I wonder if owners of non-compliant vehicles will simply divert their commuting route from existing inside ULEZ railheads and as a result the good folk at the far end of the Met and Central may suddenly experience an unexpected increase in parking demand. Which may not be particularly welcome...
Indeed could ULEZ costs/controls significantly impact on travel patterns at other popular commuter tube railheads?
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Post by stapler on Apr 15, 2023 16:24:09 GMT
It won't be every station within the M25. Theydon Bois, Debden, Loughton, Buck Hill and the Loop will not be in the ULEZ. All of these, other than Debden and the Loop, are very stringently parking restricted, so I wouldn't think the nett effect on saturation will be very high. Chingford overground is also on the very edge of the ULEZ. Between the station and the Forest is outside the ULEZ, but the other side is within it...
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Post by selbiehouse on Apr 15, 2023 16:52:27 GMT
The ULEZ rules apply within the Greater London area which is rather different to the area within the M25 - especially if you live in between the two. Rickmansworth and Moor Park will not be in the ULEZ. Currently certain London Boroughs, including Harrow and Hillingdon, are refusing to implement the measures. A valid point is made in that it might well cause some people to change their travel patterns.
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Post by stapler on Apr 15, 2023 17:16:09 GMT
. A valid point is made in that it might well cause some people to change their travel patterns. Isn't it designed to cause some people to change their travel patterns? |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Apr 15, 2023 17:40:27 GMT
Remember there is a pending court case challenging the ULEZ.
Perhaps Bromley will be turned into a giant car park.
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 15, 2023 21:10:09 GMT
Yes, there is a court case under way, I think its safe to say that the expansion of the ULEZ zone is highly controversial. I see it as a present-era version of the 1950s clean air legislation which successfully ended the deadly air pollution smogs.
At around the same time as the clean air acts were enacted the railways started converting from steam to diesel traction, and in some cases, electric. This includes the Metropolitan line and several urban & outer suburban main line railway routes here in London. Moving away from steam would have also helped clean London's air, but to my eyes it seems a retrograde step that London Transport commenced the bus network conversion from electric to diesel traction at around the same time.
I have a friend who is in his 80s and walks with difficulty. He does not use his car very often and is very unhappy because if ULEZ is introduced throughout suburban London it will attract the daily fee.
I cannot help wonder whether the court action could have been averted if a compromise had been reached for a longer transition period and with lower fees for people who like him live in suburban London and just cannot afford a replacement vehicle.
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Post by stapler on Apr 16, 2023 12:16:21 GMT
Don't forget the local orders introducing smokeless zones took about 15 years to complete, which included the conversion to natural gas. Smogs were still around in the early-mid 60s, but they were no longer quite so uniformly toxic as different areas went smokeless.
Mr Khan wants to do it overnight. He could take a lesson from back then...
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class411
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Post by class411 on Apr 16, 2023 13:00:21 GMT
From the London councils site:
"In London, 9,400 premature deaths are attributed to poor air quality and a cost of between £1.4 and £3.7 billion a year to the health service."
Even if only 20% of those deaths were attributable to car originating pollution, that's an awful lot of deaths over 15 years.
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Post by modeng2000 on Apr 16, 2023 16:54:46 GMT
Well they would publish this wouldn't they!!!
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Post by croxleyn on Apr 16, 2023 17:26:05 GMT
Rather than this blunderbuss approach to cleaning air, I would rather see a tightening of the (national) MOT emissions test to get smokey, smelly engines sorted, or off the road. Outside of London, I frequently have to set my car heater to re-circulate because of a stinker in front, even several vehicles away. Conversely there must be many aged cars, with low mileage that really are not a problem.
And also, a lot of "emissions" are actually from the tyres...
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 16, 2023 20:46:45 GMT
Interestingly my coal fired steam roller meets the ULEZ emission standards.
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Post by alpinejohn on Apr 17, 2023 10:29:05 GMT
... And also, a lot of "emissions" are actually from the tyres... This really is the big question - where does all that dust and other pollution come from? Are we focusing on the right targets. Actually ensuring vehicle testing is rigorous would be a great start especially as the current rarely supervised testing scheme carries the risk that all you need to do is find some folding stuff and the right person to sign off your test certificate. I fear that once people start digging into this "can of worms" people will indeed realise that in addition to tyre wear other things like wear of brake disks and brake linings are also significant sources of fine particulate matter. Indeed the switch to generally much heavier EV models may actually make things a lot worse on all those counts. I also have a nasty feeling that LUL already know there may be significant issues in relation to harmful dust/particle levels lurking in many tunnel sections of the tube. Perhaps the Mayor should be just as keen to act to save Londoners from this risk especially as he is the ultimate boss and immediately close the entire system down at least until they can build a proper tunnel cleaning train and regularly clean out the immense amount of dust lurking in the tunnels. I was astonished to see just how filthy some relatively new sections were on the Hidden London visit to Finsbury Park. I hate to think what dust levels the track maintenance staff are expected to work in on a daily basis. How long will it be before the No win no fee fraternity focus on this money spinner? |
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Post by ducatisti on Apr 17, 2023 11:52:36 GMT
Interestingly my coal fired steam roller meets the ULEZ emission standards. Doesn't produce any NOx then? Interestingly, some quite old two-stroke motorcycles have been managed to pass. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 17, 2023 18:20:03 GMT
Pass, I just put the registration number into the checker and it said I didn't need to pay the fee!
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Post by Chris L on Apr 17, 2023 20:00:58 GMT
Pass, I just put the registration number into the checker and it said I didn't need to pay the fee! Like 80% of the cars in the soon to be extended area. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Apr 18, 2023 1:10:32 GMT
Pass, I just put the registration number into the checker and it said I didn't need to pay the fee! So, will you be driving it to the Coronation Special? |
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Post by billbedford on Apr 18, 2023 7:29:18 GMT
This really is the big question - where does all that dust and other pollution come from? On warm summer days when the wind is from the south, all the cars in a street can be seen to have a thin layer of reddish dust. That comes from the Sahara and good luck with stopping it with a mayorial fiat. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Apr 18, 2023 10:03:45 GMT
good luck with stopping it with a mayorial fiat. The mayori is driven in a Range Rover. |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 18, 2023 11:00:51 GMT
Tyre scrub is a known issue - trams and trains do not suffer from this.
Brake block dust is also an issue (affects just about all wheeled transports!) but regenerative braking can help reduce this.
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Post by modeng2000 on Apr 18, 2023 14:25:57 GMT
Tyre scrub is a known issue - trams and trains do not suffer from this. Brake block dust is also an issue (affects just about all wheeled transports!) but regenerative braking can help reduce this. Trams and trains have iron dust as well as brake dust.
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Post by billbedford on Apr 19, 2023 8:55:14 GMT
Can anyone point me to research that qualifies the amount of PM 2.5 particles people actually breathe in, rather based on models?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Apr 19, 2023 9:51:09 GMT
Can anyone point me to research that qualifies the amount of PM 2.5 particles people actually breathe in, rather based on models? Of course not Unless you measured every breath that everyone took, you must use gathered data with some kind of statistical model. |
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Post by billbedford on Apr 20, 2023 8:05:24 GMT
Of course not Unless you measured every breath that everyone took, you must use gathered data with some kind of statistical model. But models tell you exactly what they are designed to tell you. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Apr 20, 2023 8:45:58 GMT
Of course not Unless you measured every breath that everyone took, you must use gathered data with some kind of statistical model. But models tell you exactly what they are designed to tell you. That certainly can be true, particularly of more complex models - or ones that depend on dubious or unproveable assumptions, but as I pointed out in the response you quoted, there is no other practical way. In this instance, the model is fairly simple, and if you can find any dubious assumptions (e.g. that all problems are caused by fumes - ignoring other particulate generators), anyone is welcome to point them out. |
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Post by trt on Apr 20, 2023 9:30:51 GMT
Well you *could* autopsy the bodies of rodentia who have made their home in the underground of course. That would give you some fairly direct data that could be compared between different lines, locations underground, street level in the city, ground level in the countryside etc.
But using air sampling is another technique.
Smith et al. PM2.5 on the London Underground. Environment International. Volume 134, January 2020
and some of the effects of PMs (review papers)
Flood-Garibay, JA et al. Particulate matter and ultrafine particles in urban air pollution and their effect on the nervous system. Environ. Sci. Processes Impacts, January 2023
You, R et al. The pathogenic effects of particulate matter on neurodegeneration: a review J. Biomed. Sci. (2022) 29:15
Wang, Y et al. Toxicity of inhaled particulate matter on the central nervous system: neuroinflammation, neuropsychological effects and neurodegenerative disease. J. Apple. Toxicol. (2017) 37:644-667
There are also a number of preliminary studies raising concerns about developmental effects which in turn means that risk assessments may need to be revisited regarding PM exposure for gestating humans (or pregnant females if you prefer that terminology).
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