DLR Extension to Thamesmead update

[trainwizard]

An answer to a question from the Mayor's question time (link) provided an update on the proposed DLR extension to Thamesmead:

To date, funding partners including boroughs, developers, landowners, government departments and the Greater London Authority, have provided c£1.5m for feasibility funding to progress the design of transport options to support 20,000-30,000 potential new homes in Beckton Riverside and Thamesmead. This feasibility work is nearing a single option stage, with a preferred package of a Docklands Light Railway extension from Gallions Reach to Beckton Riverside and Thamesmead combined with a Bus Transit from Woolwich to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood.

Funding for construction is not yet in place. At this stage, Transport for London (TfL) is working with partners to assess the case for the scheme and to define the scheme and its costs. As part of that work TfL is assessing funding options in order to develop the scheme towards a planning application or Transport & Works Act application aimed for 2026. A Strategic Outline case and financial request to Government to contribute to this next stage of work is under preparation and will be presented to Government in the coming months.

More information at ianVisits.

My question is what would happen to Beckton, as the planned extension branches off after Gallions Reach. Will the DLR service be split between Beckton and Thamesmead? 
Also, I know the forum is not fond of bus discussion, but would the proposed Bus Transit be the first "guided busway" in London?

[jimbo]

Probably 50/50 split to Beckton & Thamesmead. The line at Gallions Reach is facing north, so I suppose will take route into Beckton depot with Riverside station before crossing by bridge? tunnel according to Ian Visits.

[trainwizard]

IanVisits includes a quote from someone at TfL who says it will be a tunnel.

But yes, a 50/50 split makes sense. Somewhat similar to Amersham/Chesham, I guess? Although, along that line, would it be possible to have a shuttle from Beckton to Gallions Reach and full frequency to Thamesmead? There's a crossover north of Gallions Reach but I don't think the station's two platforms would be able to handle it.

[Chris M]

The most likely service pattern is Tower Gateway to Beckton and Canning Town or Stratford International to Thamesmead (or vice versa)

[jimbo]

When the current new trains were being ordered, six years back, consideration was given to possible future needs for additional trains. Thamesmead is mentioned, starting with a Beckton/Thamesmead shuttle 22.5tph, followed by a Beckton/Thamesmead to Stratford 15tph, and extra Beckton/Thamesmead to Poplar service 30tph, with possible Barking Town to Thamesmead service in a DLR maximum 36tph and Thamesmead to Abbey Wood extension, a fleet total of 135 trains. link

[jimbo]

I wonder why the DLR is heading for 36tph maximum capacity. This seems to be the current target for the tube lines, other than Bakerloo where the demand does not exist. I would have thought that the DLR could aim higher, with its shorter trains at gap-free straight platforms. A metro option for Crossrail 2 suggested that similar trains could achieve 40tph, if I recall correctly, perhaps even higher.

[Chris L]

Apr 21, 2023 5:34:56 GMT jimbo said:

I wonder why the DLR is heading for 36tph maximum capacity. This seems to be the current target for the tube lines, other than Bakerloo where the demand does not exist. I would have thought that the DLR could aim higher, with its shorter trains at gap-free straight platforms. A metro option for Crossrail 2 suggested that similar trains could achieve 40tph, if I recall correctly, perhaps even higher.

Could it be terminal capacity and boarding speeds?

[jimbo]

We are intending to submit a strategic outline business case to central Government in early June 2023. Alongside this, we hosted both the Housing Minister and Minister for London on site visits to Thamesmead this year. Optioneering is at an advanced stage and includes a new cross-river DLR extension from Gallions Reach to Thamesmead via Beckton Riverside. This would deliver a new DLR station at Beckton Riverside, a tunnel under the Thames and a new DLR station at Thamesmead. This is part of a package which also includes the assessment of a bus transit system, providing a quick and reliable service between Woolwich, Plumstead, Thamesmead and Abbey Wood.

We are working on how a scheme of this scale could be funded and delivered, and, subject to this, an application for consent could be submitted in 2026, with services operating by the early 2030s. [Delivering the Mayor’s Transport
Strategy 2022/23 [Draft] June 2023]

source with map p.203 / 232

[spsmiler]

Beckton Riverside station with London Overground interchange?

It all sounds very reasonable, although maybe the extension should end at Abbey Wood for Elizabeth line interchange - and fast travel to central London?

Otherwise for all sorts of travel passengers will have to change trains 'several times'.

[Chris M]

London Overground doesn't go anywhere near Beckton, you might be confusing it with Barking Riverside?

This project seems to be only considering the option of DLR to Thamesmead and improved bus links from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood and other existing stations on the North Kent line, I'd guess because of cost. Passive provision for an extension is probably the best we can hope for.

[spsmiler]

Jun 1, 2023 1:25:29 GMT Chris M said:

London Overground doesn't go anywhere near Beckton, you might be confusing it with Barking Riverside?

Well they both begin with a capital B ... yes I meant Barking, not Beckton! Apologies for the confusion.

[trainwizard]

May 31, 2023 22:27:02 GMT spsmiler said:

Beckton Barking Riverside station with London Overground interchange?
It all sounds very reasonable, although maybe the extension should end at Abbey Wood for Elizabeth line interchange - and fast travel to central London?

The DLR won't go to Barking Riverside - it crosses under the river after Beckton Riverside. They're still leaving open the possibility of an Overground extension to Thamesmead, however it looks like it isn't being considered at the moment because it would cost more and offer less trains per hour.

As for DLR extensions, ianvisits said there's a possibility of an extension through Thamesmead towards Belvedere. I think the Elizabeth Line interchange should be handled by the bus transit, which goes to both Woolwich and Abbey Wood.

[melikepie]

Don't forget there are proposals to extend the Elizabeth line to Gravesend

[Chris L]

Jun 6, 2023 16:20:12 GMT melikepie said:

Don't forget there are proposals to extend the Elizabeth line to Gravesend

Council dreams not official proposals.

[trainwizard]

Jun 6, 2023 17:58:38 GMT Chris L said:

Jun 6, 2023 16:20:12 GMT melikepie said:

Don't forget there are proposals to extend the Elizabeth line to Gravesend

Council dreams not official proposals.

Not really - it was included as a 'potential' Elizabeth Line in the Mayor's 2018 transport strategy. We're probably not getting it anytime soon, but it's definitely possible and being considered. A better example of council dreams would be that wacky loop extension to Thurrock.

As melikepie points out, it could connect with Belvedere which may have an Elizabeth Line service in the future.

[Chris L]

Jun 6, 2023 20:20:29 GMT trainwizard said:

Jun 6, 2023 17:58:38 GMT Chris L said:

Council dreams not official proposals.

Not really - it was included as a 'potential' Elizabeth Line in the Mayor's 2018 transport strategy. We're probably not getting it anytime soon, but it's definitely possible and being considered. A better example of council dreams would be that wacky loop extension to Thurrock.

As melikepie points out, it could connect with Belvedere which may have an Elizabeth Line service in the future.

Perhaps I should have said workable proposals. Physical barriers and the fact that the design of the trains did not include dual voltage.

[trainwizard]

TfL have submitted their Strategic Outline Case to the government and created a website for the DLR extension proposal to Thamesmead. This includes (website quote):

1. A cross-river DLR extension from Gallions Reach to Thamesmead via Beckton Riverside. This would connect 2 opportunity areas and 4 development sites, including a:

• New DLR station at Beckton Riverside
• Tunnel under the River Thames
• New DLR station at Thamesmead
  

2. A bus transit scheme using dedicated infrastructure from Woolwich to Abbey Wood via Thamesmead.

This would improve local connectivity and capacity in the wider Thamesmead area, including affordable, accessible and frequent connections to the Elizabeth line and DLR services.

As for when we may see this, the website states that, with government capital funding, construction can begin as early as 2028, aiming for an opening in the early 2030s. Seems like quite an optimistic estimate.

[trainwizard]

TfL have started a consultation on the DLR extension to Thamesmead. The proposed extension splits off from the Beckton branch after Gallions Reach, stops at a new station in Beckton Riverside, crosses the Thames in a tunnel, and terminates at a new station in Thamesmead.

TfL said they considered and ruled out (for now) enhanced bus services, a new tram service, extending the Overground from Barking Riverside, and extending the DLR beyond Thamesmead. However, there is planned passive provision to extend the line beyond Thamesmead, possibly to Belvedere or Bexley.

There is confirmation of a bus transit scheme, running from Woolwich to Abbey Wood via Thamesmead using bus priority lanes, that will be consulted upon later and could arrive before the DLR extension during the early stages of development. There is also mention of removing safeguarding for the Thames Gateway Bridge, which TfL currently has no plans to deliver, if the extension goes ahead.

All the information above and more (including maps of the proposed route - one day I'm going to learn how to post images on this forum) can be found at the consultation page here: haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-extension

[spsmiler]

This tweet includes the Overgound extension from Barking Riverside - something that I was told would be impossible as the station is too low for a bridge over the Thames and too high for a tunnel below the Thames.

[jimbo]

Development of the Barking Riverside extension project claimed to provide for a possible future extension across the river, I thought on a bridge. That may have been lost as an economy measure in the later stages of the project.

The notes on alternatives considered state that an extension of heavy rail from Barking Riverside to Thamesmead, at higher cost than the DLR extension, could only offer 4tph compared with up to 15tph on the DLR, would not serve Beckton Riverside, and would not connect to major employment centres.

[greatkingrat]

If the Overground was extended, I think the current Riverside station would have to be closed and replaced by a new one, just like Island Gardens DLR was.

[trainwizard]

Feb 5, 2024 23:18:44 GMT spsmiler said:

This tweet includes the Overground extension from Barking Riverside - something that I was told would be impossible as the station is too low for a bridge over the Thames and too high for a tunnel below the Thames.

I think the maps produced include Barking Riverside to show all the available transport in the area. And the other map shows routes that were considered but ultimately rejected, including extensions beyond Barking Riverside. Here's what they've said about it in the consultation:

We assessed a range of options to extend the London Overground from Barking Riverside to Thamesmead and beyond. This would open up new rail connections between parts of north and southeast London and create an outer orbital link across the River Thames. In doing so, these options would connect Thamesmead to National Rail and London Underground services at Barking, and potentially Elizabeth Line and National Rail services in southeast London.

However, services would only operate at around four trains per hour compared with the potential for up to 15 trains per hour in the peak with a DLR extension. This level of service would be less attractive for Thamesmead, whilst Beckton Riverside would not be served at all, and therefore these options would be significantly less effective in supporting new homes. In addition, these services would not connect communities to big employment centres and this benefit is therefore lost. A London Overground extension would also be significantly higher cost than a DLR extension.

It looks like in addition to having to redo Barking Riverside station, they're also concerned about the frequency and making sure Beckton Riverside is served as well.

[Chris L]

Planning consent has been granted for up to 1,250 new homes in Belvedere but TfL do not think an extension is needed yet.

[spsmiler]

Even thinking of rebuilding Barking Riverside station is absurd - the station is what, two years old? Surely it should have been built 'future proof', by which I mean with an extension over the Thames in mind.

Maybe it will be better to just extend the Hammersmith & City and leave the Overground station 'as-is'? (Also instead of extending the DLR, which also has lower capacity as well as less potential for a truly rapid-transit' fast service).

This would also make a more frequent service easier to arrange!

[greatkingrat]

Absolutely no chance, unless you want to completely rebuild Barking Station from scratch!

[jimbo]

FoI request 4050-2324 on 4 March 2024 revealed the Strategic Outline Case dated May 2023 together with both long and short option assessments. Those considered included the Hammersmith & City from Barking, with either new tunneled platforms or tunnelling from the sidings area. As stated above, extensions beyond Barking Riverside require a new tunneled station there, but heavy rail options could not compete with a DLR extension. Also considered were the previous proposal for a DLR branch to Dagenham Dock and a tunneled approach to Barking town centre, not included in the final options.

[joshua]

Apr 18, 2023 21:51:52 GMT Chris M said:

The most likely service pattern is Tower Gateway to Beckton and Canning Town or Stratford International to Thamesmead (or vice versa)

Would you have a Beckton to Thamesmead service as well? Also is there a plan to resite Tower Gateway station on the Bank Branch to allow all trains to run to Bank and therefore increase capacity or has this plan been scrapped?

[revupminster]

Jul 21, 2024 12:50:20 GMT joshua said:

Apr 18, 2023 21:51:52 GMT Chris M said:

The most likely service pattern is Tower Gateway to Beckton and Canning Town or Stratford International to Thamesmead (or vice versa)

Would you have a Beckton to Thamesmead service as well? Also is there a plan to resite Tower Gateway station on the Bank Branch to allow all trains to run to Bank and therefore increase capacity or has this plan been scrapped?

I seem to remember when the Bank extension was built a site was set aside to allow a Tower Gateway replacement station on the extension.

[Chris M]

Whether the extension will be built with a junction that allows direct Beckton-Thamesmead services is not a level of detail I've seen, but last high-level maps I recall implied they wouldn't be. If they are possible then they will definitely happen at some point, given that every other physically possible DLR service has been run at some point (e.g. during engineering works or special events). Whether they will feature as a regular part of the normal timetable will depend on rolling stock availability, demand level and interchange capacity at Gallions Reach.

Regarding moving Tower Gateway to the Bank branch, I've seen the claim about a straight section being left multiple times but I don't recall ever seeing it officially stated. I recall reading a least one operator say they are sceptical that it was ever a thing but they're not a reliable source. Although it may (I don't remember) have featured in various outline proposals/aspirational documents, I am not aware of anything that could be described as a plan. There are certainly no publicly-known current plans and it is not part of any projects or proposals related to eastern extensions.

[trainwizard]

The report for the DLR extension consultation has been published: haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/29361/widgets/83875/documents/65970
The responses were overwhelmingly positive, so TfL have said they will "progress with work to develop the DLR extension to Beckton Riverside and Thamesmead" and "progress the development of an interim Outline Business Case (OBC), with work anticipated to be completed in spring 2025".

The consultation gives a bit of information about the future of the service to Beckton station: it will remain open, it won't have direct service to Thamesmead, but the service split between Beckton and Thamesmead hasn't been decided yet

Issue 3.8: Suggestion to close spur between Gallions Reach and Beckton stations
Our Response: We have no plans to close the Beckton line as part of this project. Any closure of the line would reduce connectivity for communities and onward transport links around Beckton station, and limit opportunities for future development.

Issue 5.5: Suggestion to extend DLR from Beckton instead of Gallions Reach, Suggestion that each service should reverse at Beckton and then serve the new stations
Our Response: Providing an extension to Thamesmead from Beckton would be extremely challenging. The area surrounding Beckton station comprises of existing residential development, with additional complexity as the DLR would need to descend below the A1020 Royal Docks Road. Other constraints of this option include existing power infrastructure and open space situated between Beckton and the area to the east of the A1020.

Issue 7.3: Concern extension will impact DLR frequency on existing parts of the line / reduced service to Beckton station
Our Response: We have not yet developed plans for the future service patterns that would serve the Beckton and Thamesmead branches. We will share more information in future consultations.