Renaming of London's P. T. Lines

[pcongre]

Hello everyone,

In my quest to understand London's public transport network a bit better,
I've been trying to imagine how the wayfinding could look like in London
if it was to be magically transported to a German-speaking country
that numbered its radial lines roughly mirroring the numbers on a clock
(lines 03 and 15 to the East, 12 and 24 to the North, etc)

And I was wondering:
Could you kind people please tell me what the worst offenses I've committed in the renaming of the lines are?
(...I assume most of my "non-aesthetic" mistakes are concentrated somewhere around the Victoria/Charing cross stations? ^^' )

Thanks in advance in any case
and cheers from Stockholm,
/p

---







Full map:
www.dropbox.com/s/m5k3l7hfc9j7s07/ylondon-map-giant.pdf?dl=0

[spsmiler]

hmm, its not the concept but the fact that we already have a system which we know and understand.

Trying to change the system will create too much confusion.

There is a saying ... "if something is not broken, do not try to fix (ie: repair) it"

[pcongre]

Arguably, it is a bit broken for people visiting - or at least the wayfinding could be more pedagogic
But the title of the thread was admittedly a bit clickbait-y, sorry about that : )

I renamed the lines precisely to try and understand the system - and I still don't feel like I do completely, after hours spent reading wiki articles, etc
Especially South of the Circle line - surely you all should be able to spot some (blatant?) errors on the lines departing from Victoria/Charing Cross?
...or elsewhere, for that matter : D

[gantshill]

It can be instructive to see an unfamiliar public transport system shown in a more familiar style. (So for me that is in the LT standard). But is isn't easy to see how your system of naming services relates to the current services we know. To take as an example, you pcongre have allocated the name U14 to the central line, but there are lots of suffixes that I just don't understand as I can't see an explanation.

[pcongre]

Right, sorry!
I'll try to be as pedagogic as possible myself now ^^

Relevant prefixes, combinable:
G = steep grade/gadgetbahn (i.e. "not-yet" widespread mode of transport)
T = tram
U = urban "underground" (i.e. grade-separated, own tracks, high-capacity, etc)
S/M/L = short/mid/long-distance trains

Relevant suffixes, combinable:
-G/T/U/S/M/L = shorter service
A-E = branches
F = feeder line
X/Y/Z = express/semi-express/local
_ = limited service
* = night service

(L12) = "long-distance train line to the North uses these tracks"
[U90] = future extension of 8th underground circle line, hypothetically (U00/30/40/50/60/70/80/90)

(((In other words, a nomenclature based on the one used in German-speaking countries,
but tweaked in an attempt to cover more modes of transport than the ones present there
...and probably flawed by subjective preferences, not only by lack of knowledge : ) )))

[antharro]

I must admit I'm really not sure what the point of this is. If I'm telling someone to take the District Line to Richmond, I'm going to tell them exactly that. The District is clearly shown as the green line in the lines guide, and if they're from out of town I can tell them it's both the District and it's shown as the green line on the map. Telling them to take U03D just seems unnecessarily cumbersome. Seems to be taking something that's relatively well designed and understood and making it harder to use? I don't get it.

[pcongre]

Well, admittedly it might have been a bit selfish of me
But like I wrote, the point was/is for me to try to understand how the system works
And I was simply hoping for someone to check if there were any blatant mistakes in my 'notes' so far : )

(((But for the record I'm not completely sure the current nomenclature is as informative for non-tech-savvy tourists as you seem to think ; )
Berlin: "take _the S45 from the airport_ to Hermannstrasse, then any _U8 train_ and get off at Osloer Strasse"
~=
London: "take _the [~suburban] Elizabeth line from the airport toward Shenfield_ to Stratford,
then any _[underground] Jubilee line train_ and get off at North Greenwich")))

[d7666]

Jul 3, 2023 18:41:23 GMT antharro said:

I must admit I'm really not sure what the point of this is. If I'm telling someone to take the District Line to Richmond, I'm going to tell them exactly that. The District is clearly shown as the green line in the lines guide, and if they're from out of town I can tell them it's both the District and it's shown as the green line on the map. Telling them to take U03D just seems unnecessarily cumbersome. Seems to be taking something that's relatively well designed and understood and making it harder to use? I don't get it.

Methinks it is no more than most (all?) mainland European cities with metros (or U-bahns etc) have things like U1, U2, U2, or Line 1, 2, 3, or even just red, yellow, green, etc and most (all?) do not have line names like wot we do; the OP is trying to align us.

[35b]

Jul 3, 2023 22:44:30 GMT pcongre said:

Well, admittedly it might have been a bit selfish of me
But like I wrote, the point was/is for me to try to understand how the system works
And I was simply hoping for someone to check if there were any blatant mistakes in my 'notes' so far : )

(((But for the record I'm not completely sure the current nomenclature is as informative for non-tech-savvy tourists as you seem to think ; )
Berlin: "take _the S45 from the airport_ to Hermannstrasse, then any _U8 train_ and get off at Osloer Strasse"
~=
London: "take _the [~suburban] Elizabeth line from the airport toward Shenfield_ to Stratford,
then any _[underground] Jubilee line train_ and get off at North Greenwich")))

They’re both naming systems, just different in style.

[brigham]

It's not so much the naming that can cause confusion; it's the bulk.

Strangers need a simple presentation, like fish and chips. Leave five different fish dishes with seven kinds of potato to the folk who are already familiar with the Savoy Grill.

[trt]

I note a lot of heritage railways have a Fish & Chip Supper service.

[pcongre]

Jul 5, 2023 7:28:38 GMT brigham said:

It's not so much the naming that can cause confusion; it's the bulk.

Strangers need a simple presentation, like fish and chips. Leave five different fish dishes with seven kinds of potato to the folk who are already familiar with the Savoy Grill.

Exactly, that's why I was trying to convey as much -hopefully- relevant information as possible at a glance
while still -again, hopefully- being able to use exactly the same naming system in any other city worldwide

"U14AU" =
underground (U) line to the ~Northeast (14) of the city center that is the 1st to branch off from the main line (A),
on an unusually short service (U)[, in this case between Hainault and White City]
vs
"Central line between Hainault and White City" =
...[shorter service of the] Central line [of the tube]
between Hainault [on the Northern half of the Hainault loop] and White City

(((but like I clarified many times already, I renamed the lines just as kind of a personal thought experiment...
not because my name is secretely Andy Lord and/or I have any say in how lines should be called anywhere in the world, alas ^^')))

[trt]

Well they're looking to rename the LO services at the moment, so there's an opportunity there.

[d7666]

Jul 5, 2023 10:52:59 GMT trt said:

Well they're looking to rename the LO services at the moment, so there's an opportunity there.

Surely "they" are looking at naming not renaming; collectively lines will still be LO just as collectively tube lines are LU ?

[trt]

Officially it is naming something that only has a collective name. For everyone else, who has already decided what to call the lines on an individual basis, it's renaming. After all, what's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other word would smell as sweet. But I'll concede the point.

[alpinejohn]

Jul 5, 2023 10:52:59 GMT trt said:

Well they're looking to rename the LO services at the moment, so there's an opportunity there.

I agree - However the real need now is to sort out workable names for the LO routes - not provide passengers with extraneous information - they just need to know what line takes them to their destination - most passengers don't care whether its a mainline gauge service or tube stock - they just want to reach their destination swiftly and safely.

I am not sure if the folks in TFL towers like it - but I really hope that when they finally announce their choices for LO that they stick with GOBLIN even if services now run beyond Barking. It would be mad to fight against decades of common usage.

It is interesting to see just how often people still use CrossRail rather than refer to the Elizabeth Line line. Perhaps the other LO routes could end up with other mythical creature names.

As for ever changing the existing line names on the Tube Map you are wasting your time as that ship sailed long ago. If anything the tube map is already badly cluttered with ephemera, and I would be happy to see it to revert to just a simple tube only map with information on all the other TFL services provided on an entirely separate TFL services map.

[castlebar]

RENAMING lines suggests that some people have nothing else to do

And the COST!!! £Thousands, just to confuse people.

IT suggests to my simple mind that there is overstaffing, and SOME people would be better employed doing something more useful.
Paying money to create confusion is economics of the mad house.

[pcongre]

Jul 5, 2023 14:20:31 GMT alpinejohn said:

- they just need to know what line takes them to their destination - most passengers don't care whether its a mainline gauge service or tube stock -

Agreed in principle, but where do you draw the line?
Don't you think it might be relevant for a 1st-time user to know if the train
is going to stop more (~tube) or less (~mainline) often
[or have a higher (tube) or lower (mainline) frequency service]?

In practice it means a trip e g taking 12 vs 21 min West Ham-Upminster mainline vs tube (yet 36 vs 43 Marylebone/BakerSt-Amersham)
The same thing applies to Elizabeth vs DLR, etc = 8 vs 17 Woolwich~Canary Wharf
[but, again, the frequency is another question]

I'd argue that's the main reason German-speaking countries tend to make a distinction between e g U- and S-bahn:
to render that (relevant, imo) information as accessible as possible

[zbang]

Jul 5, 2023 18:29:23 GMT pcongre said:

Don't you think it might be relevant for a 1st-time user to know if the train is going to stop more (~tube) or less (~mainline) often
[or have a higher (tube) or lower (mainline) frequency service]?

Not as much, more that it stops where they want to alight and the departure/arrival times. And the first-time visitor to London is likely to be within zones 1-4(?) which AFAIK are all all-stop services, at least for most services. (Don't forget there may be fare differences between modes, line identification cannot convey that.)

Jul 5, 2023 18:29:23 GMT pcongre said:

In practice it means a trip e g taking 12 vs 21 min West Ham-Upminster mainline vs tube (yet 36 vs 43 Marylebone/BakerSt-Amersham)
The same thing applies to Elizabeth vs DLR, etc = 8 vs 17 Woolwich~Canary Wharf
[but, again, the frequency is another question]

As an occasional tourist, I'm more interested in getting somewhere than shaving a few minutes off the time.  Also, most visitors are more likely to use the mode they're already familiar with, which is probably the TfL metro lines, than saying "If I take the DLR, I'll get there faster but I've never been on the DLR; how does it work?" Or "Why take the Overground when I can take the Central to Oxford Circus and change to Victoria there?"

And.... I suspect that fewer visitors are trying to puzzle out journeys with a paper map and more with mobile phone transit planners (I'm tolerably familiar with the Tube and still use google maps). A different set of nomenclature will not help there.

(A fair number of systems simply rely on route name/color/number & terminus station. That seems to work.)

[pcongre]

Jul 5, 2023 21:17:14 GMT zbang said:

the first-time visitor (...) fare differences (...) occasional tourist (...) more with mobile phone (...) That seems to work

Right, my bad - when I wrote of ~"tourists" and "1st-time users"
the group of people I was thinking of was in fact far more heterogeneous:
from experience 2010-15 working at a customer service office in central Barcelona
(i e a time when the use of smartphones was relatively widespread),
you could get basic questions from all kinds of people,
about a p.t. system that imo has succeeded in making its wayfinding somewhat understandable;
of course, tourists, the elderly and even unaccompanied minors were still overrepresented
and they no doubt must've been a tiny percentage of the total number of users;
but in any case, in general, these were people that imo needed all the help they could get:
different jingles for every (numbered) station and numbered station exits,
info about when/where in the train would be the most crowded, like e g in Japan...
all things that are superfluous to many,
but can make a difference for a minority
in terms of accessibility of information

All of this is perhaps a bit OT, though...
so I'll make a last attempt to get back on track, just in case : D
Does anyone know of any webpages where I can check if I understood correctly
how the lines to/from Victoria & Charing Cross operate?

[SunSeeker]

Jul 5, 2023 17:31:24 GMT castlebar said:

RENAMING lines suggests that some people have nothing else to do

And the COST!!! £Thousands, just to confuse people.

IT suggests to my simple mind that there is overstaffing, and SOME people would be better employed doing something more useful.
Paying money to create confusion is economics of the mad house.

Thousands? It's more like millions. Another complete waste of money. This company loves throwing money away on pointless things then trying to save money by cutting things that are actually important, like staff.

No need whatsoever to change the names of the lines.