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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 8, 2024 10:36:44 GMT
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Post by starlight73 on Apr 8, 2024 19:38:33 GMT
I guess this means that the emergency timetable has now been created for Fri-Sun, whereas previously, it was only Mon-Thu?
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Post by xtmw on Apr 8, 2024 19:41:01 GMT
Precisely
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Post by superteacher on Apr 8, 2024 20:00:47 GMT
60 train service? How has it ever been allowed to get to this point?
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Post by xtmw on Apr 8, 2024 20:12:57 GMT
If I'm not mistaken I believe the previous Mayor of London cancelled replacement stock for the Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City lines in late 2009?
If he didn't I don't think we'd be in this mess ! (Not that this conversation should go down the politics avenue)
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Post by superteacher on Apr 8, 2024 22:01:08 GMT
If I'm not mistaken I believe the previous Mayor of London cancelled replacement stock for the Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City lines in late 2009? If he didn't I don't think we'd be in this mess ! (Not that this conversation should go down the politics avenue) The 1992 stock is 30 years old which isn’t really that old for a train. They are now a similar age to their predecessors (1962 stock) when they were about to be replaced. The difference between reliability between the two stocks is stark. It’s always been known that the 92’s were a poor product, but has that been compounded by poor maintenance and lack of investment? |
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Post by xtmw on Apr 8, 2024 22:31:05 GMT
The 92s have been a problem since day one. Engineers buckled up for an increase in motor failures but nothing of this scale.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 9, 2024 5:30:29 GMT
If I'm not mistaken I believe the previous Mayor of London cancelled replacement stock for the Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City lines in late 2009? If he didn't I don't think we'd be in this mess ! (Not that this conversation should go down the politics avenue) To be specific, funds for upgrading LU were in short supply towards the end of the last century, which led to the task being outsourced to the private sector under the 30-year PPP - Public-Private Partnership. That initially promised new trains on the Piccadilly and Bakerloo Lines, but not on the Central and Waterloo & City lines. Both PPP companies did not last the first quarter, with no orders having been placed for these trains, leaving the problem of funding future upgrades with the Government. On the collapse of Metronet, LU originally planned a small order of new trains for the Bakerloo Line, and proposed the same design for the Central and later the W&C line to share development costs. The later incorporation of Tube Lines into TfL left a need for new trains for the Piccadilly, which eventually took priority in the order. A grant was provided to produce a prototype train by 2015, which later became the deadline for tendering the contract. That led to the order with Siemens, and current testing of pre-production trains. The Piccadilly Line was promised new trains under PPP from 2012-14, so a lost ten years! The Bakerloo upgrade was only envisaged for 2020. |
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Post by starlight73 on Apr 9, 2024 7:39:56 GMT
If I'm not mistaken I believe the previous Mayor of London cancelled replacement stock for the Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City lines in late 2009? (can’t find a better source) implies that Tube Lines began ordering new Piccadilly trains, but that was shut down when TfL bought out Tube Lines in 2009. Johnson was then responsible for ordering the Piccadilly line trains in 2014 ( Financial Times) As jimbo says, new trains on the Central, Bakerloo, and Waterloo & City were supposed to follow. However, TfL found they don’t have the money to do that ( Modern Railways) Edit: what I meant to say is that the politics is probably not relevant as the decision seemed to be delayed by TfL’s absorption of Tube Lines, but then TfL went ahead and ordered them after a delay. |
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Post by brigham on Apr 9, 2024 7:52:06 GMT
At which point in these events did the Mayor of London intervene? Is the Mayor's involvement in the proceedings a benefit or a liability?
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Dom K
Global Moderator
The future is bright
Posts: 1,831 
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Post by Dom K on Apr 9, 2024 8:31:09 GMT
We are teasing a discussion about politics, which as you know is not a thing we discuss here. Please be mindful of where the topic might be going. Thanks
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 9, 2024 11:08:38 GMT
60 train service? How has it ever been allowed to get to this point? As with TTN99/24 there is provision for 58, 56 and 53 train availability. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 9, 2024 11:19:40 GMT
Regardless of who was mayor and how much funding was provided, this level of failure is quite unprecedented. I recall that it was BREL who built the trains, but were the motors purchased separately?
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 210
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Post by gefw on Apr 9, 2024 13:11:45 GMT
Was rather hoping to hear some steps back towards the normal service;
With all the high profile attention, hopefully the cause of the upsurge in failures has been understood, the existing preemptive/control measures tightened and a new stock of brushes/springs obtained. The March TFL board report says both Internal and External specialist Engineers are on the case.
Also hopefully motors have been released from the CLIP project team to bolster the maintenance team spares float and ease their repair loop.
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 210
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Post by gefw on Apr 9, 2024 13:22:59 GMT
Regardless of who was mayor and how much funding was provided, this level of failure is quite unprecedented. I recall that it was BREL who built the trains, but were the motors purchased separately? I believe 92 stock train was designed and built by BREL/Bombardier, this should have also included defining/documenting all 1st and 2nd line maintenance procedures (manuals) to be used by LUL. I am not sure what design responsibilities or Technical support are still in place with Bombardier, I believe LUL have taken over a fair bit. Over the years I do believe 3rd line work (eg overhauls/repairs/rebuilds) have been undertaken by others (including inhouse at Acton), |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 10, 2024 0:26:01 GMT
If I'm not mistaken I believe the previous Mayor of London cancelled replacement stock for the Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City lines in late 2009? (can’t find a better source) implies that Tube Lines began ordering new Piccadilly trains, but that was shut down when TfL bought out Tube Lines in 2009. Johnson was mayor from 2008-2016. Johnson was then responsible for ordering the Piccadilly line trains in 2014 ( Financial Times) As jimbo says, new trains on the Central, Bakerloo, and Waterloo & City were supposed to follow. However, TfL found they don’t have the money to do that ( Modern Railways) If a 10 year delay in new Piccadilly Line trains leads to the current extended life of the Central Line trains, as claimed, then Tube Lines commenced operations in April 2003 with a contract for 30 years, but funding agreed only for the first quarter, to October 2010. In January 2007, Tube Lines started the process of ordering new Piccadilly line trains by querying if train manufacturers would be interested in supplying them. Contract award was anticipated for late 2008. But by 2008 Tube Lines had commenced negotiations for the next part of the 30-year contract. In late 2009 Tube Lines applied for more funding for upgrades than had been offered and sold out to TfL in May 2010. It would appear that the new trains were to cost more than anticipated, and an order was delayed whilst funding was secured. With failure to reach agreement, the order was never placed, and TfL were left in the same situation as Tube Lines, i.e. needing new trains but without funding. [Dates from Wikipedia entries for Tube Line and also Piccadilly Line] Tube Lines were resignalling the Jubilee and Northern Lines, and presumably would have done the same for the Piccadilly Line, so were on top of those costs. But those lines already had modern trains, so the Piccadilly Line order would have been the first Tube Lines experience of ordering a new fleet (although they got four new trains along with the extra car for each Jubilee Line train). Metronet ordered new Victoria Line trains and the S stock through an in-house arrangement with their partner Bombardier which had been part of their original bid for the contracts. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 10, 2024 16:08:17 GMT
Regardless of who was mayor and how much funding was provided, this level of failure is quite unprecedented. I recall that it was BREL who built the trains, but were the motors purchased separately? I believe 92 stock train was designed and built by BREL/Bombardier, this should have also included defining/documenting all 1st and 2nd line maintenance procedures (manuals) to be used by LUL. I am not sure what design responsibilities or Technical support are still in place with Bombardier, I believe LUL have taken over a fair bit. Over the years I do believe 3rd line work (eg overhauls/repairs/rebuilds) have been undertaken by others (including inhouse at Acton), The 1992 stock was ordered from BREL in 1989, the same year it was sold to a consortium of ABB of Sweden, Trafalgar House and management buyout. In 1992 ABB bought out the other parties The Derby works were bought by Adtranz (Germany) in 1996 Adtranz was acquired by Bombardier (Canada) in 2001 Bombardier were aquired by Alstom (France) in 2021 The works are now facing closure but Alstom is supplying the new AC motors from a factory in Sweden (ABB) Confused??? |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 10, 2024 21:07:35 GMT
very radical perhaps but cant the Cravens train be borrowed for the Hainault Woodford shuttle - an 8 car train is not needed there! (would be far more useful to far more people shuttling between Leytonstone and White City)
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,199
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Post by Tom on Apr 10, 2024 21:08:29 GMT
No. Incompatible with the signalling system, for a start, plus has no authority to run on the main line and would need significant maintenance to do so.
Also, I think the train's owners might need to be consulted - and I understand it is currently motorless after the traction motors were loaned to LU for the TRV.
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,199
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Post by Tom on Apr 10, 2024 21:12:23 GMT
The 1992 stock was ordered from BREL in 1989, the same year it was sold to a consortium of ABB of Sweden, Trafalgar House and management buyout. ABB was ASEA Brown Boveri - a joint Swedish/Swiss venture. Not all of ABB became ADtranz - only the rolling stock division. Their Västerås (Sweden) factory was always a specialist in traction systems, including motors. |
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Post by 100andthirty on Apr 11, 2024 7:06:05 GMT
To further complicate the story...... an Austrian Adtranz traction motor factory somehow didn't get taken over by Bombardier and was takenover by its management. It's called TSA. Also, ABB is making traction equipment again.
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Post by gjs on Apr 12, 2024 11:11:29 GMT
Interestingly the 'replacement' buses at the eastern end of the route between Chingford-Loughton-Epping and as extras on 20 and 150 ceased before the Easter weekend. Unsurprising as the Chingford service was very poorly used and with a 50 minute journey time to Epping via Loughton that's not surprising!
GJS
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metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Apr 15, 2024 12:59:12 GMT
No. Incompatible with the signalling system, for a start, plus has no authority to run on the main line and would need significant maintenance to do so. Also, I think the train's owners might need to be consulted - and I understand it is currently motorless after the traction motors were loaned to LU for the TRV. Yes if you get Underground News, there’s a good piece this month on the plight of the Track Recording Train. Hopefully it will be back in action soon but it appears neither Cravens set is able to do its job currently. |
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Post by programmes1 on Apr 16, 2024 9:48:40 GMT
No. Incompatible with the signalling system, for a start, plus has no authority to run on the main line and would need significant maintenance to do so. Also, I think the train's owners might need to be consulted - and I understand it is currently motorless after the traction motors were loaned to LU for the TRV. Yes if you get Underground News, there’s a good piece this month on the plight of the Track Recording Train. Hopefully it will be back in action soon but it appears neither Cravens set is able to do its job currently. I think Tom is very involved with Underground News. |
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metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Apr 18, 2024 10:55:41 GMT
He certainly is!
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 210
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Post by gefw on Nov 20, 2024 16:54:25 GMT
Is the central line still running this reduced "emergency" timetable?
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Post by goldenarrow on Nov 20, 2024 17:10:16 GMT
Indeed it is
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 20, 2024 18:19:20 GMT
Its also still running in slow mode westbound Leyton - Stratford. but its not all bad news as the gentle swaying of the slow-moving train can be very soporific - ideal for a short nap!
Trains also continue to accelerate (a little) as the front portion enters the platform area at Stratford.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 20, 2024 20:37:20 GMT
Was rather hoping to hear some steps back towards the normal service; With all the high profile attention, hopefully the cause of the upsurge in failures has been understood, the existing preemptive/control measures tightened and a new stock of brushes/springs obtained. The March TFL board report says both Internal and External specialist Engineers are on the case. Also hopefully motors have been released from the CLIP project team to bolster the maintenance team spares float and ease their repair loop. It seems that the "Internal and External specialist Engineers" haven't resulted in much difference in the overall situation 8 months on? CLIP hasn't resulted in even one more train entering service, now a year since the original was launched into public service! Is there any encouraging news? |
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Post by xtmw on Nov 20, 2024 21:47:05 GMT
The tech should be off the first train soon, I think (?) the second train is still on track to enter service in December, happy to be corrected as I haven't heard what is going on CLIP wise in a few weeks.
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