towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 2, 2024 12:00:56 GMT
Mod note: Split from the 92TS refurb/replacement threadSlightly off topic,on Central and Northen Lines they had turning trips to turn units.Do they have the same thing on the west end of the Piccadilly?
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Jun 2, 2024 12:38:58 GMT
Slightly off topic,on Central and Northen Lines they had turning trips to turn units.Do they have the same thing on the west end of the Piccadilly? Ask a silly question, but what need did they have turning trips to turn units ? Both lines have 'balloon' loops - Northern at Kennington and Central via Hainault. Normal traffic should - if randomly - work them round each loop surely at least once a week if not far far more often, probably daily, forever, while even if one did need turning just ensure it is on a duty that does a loop somewhere. Sure a Central set may be out Ruislip <> Hainault all day and never go round the loop, but unlikely to stick to such a duty day after day after day. Ditto for Moredens on the Northern. If they did stick, all needs doing is ensure they to a normal duty that loops them when needed ............ but ................. ...........But .......... my real question, what is the point of turning it into one particular orientation anyway ? Once in normal traffic, Kennington and Hainault will only turn the set again and again and again forever. I am not saying they did not have special turning trips - I have no knowledge on this subject - and I can understand a possible need to turn units - I just don't understand why need to do it with special trips at all on those lines. If someone said this about Piccaddilly (pre Heathrow loop) or Bakerloo I could understand it, they'd need working off their lines for it, which really is a special trip.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,165
|
Post by Tom on Jun 2, 2024 15:18:34 GMT
On some fleets you couldn't couple A/A or D/D, you could only couple A to D, hence the need for turning trips. 1972 stock in particular only had an automatic coupler on the 4 car units (32xx and 33xx cars, with a mechanical coupler on the 35xx car).
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 2, 2024 17:03:52 GMT
Which is the situation on the Picc.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Jun 2, 2024 20:31:49 GMT
The Northern trains regularly turned on the Kennington loop, and their stabling direction depended on if they had managed an odd or even number of turns. 62 stock on the Central was basically kept the correct way since they didn't regularly turn in service. They just had to return to Hainault depot from the direction they had left, which was always scheduled. Even if they occasionally returned the wrong way due to operational changes it was just a matter of ensuring they went back out next day a particular direction. It was only when a train arrived back wrong way and needed to be split for servicing that a problem arose, as the remaining unit could not be coupled up to make another train. This is when a turning trip had to be arranged out to Leytonstone, then back to Hainault by the other route.
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 2, 2024 21:21:22 GMT
Which was almost a daily occurrence.Used to be 7 WWR and 8 RWR AM stablers at Hainault,sometimes due to service disruptions could end up with more WWR than booked so eight cars sometimes got turned.If we had to send a train in service WWR the line controller had to be told it’s running number in case a push out was required.
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Jun 2, 2024 21:31:19 GMT
On some fleets you couldn't couple A/A or D/D, you could only couple A to D, hence the need for turning trips. 1972 stock in particular only had an automatic coupler on the 4 car units (32xx and 33xx cars, with a mechanical coupler on the 35xx car). Yes, but that relates to coupling cars to cars to form units. My question is about turning whole units, why, on a line where all units routinely turn, some many times a day, need special trips ? So you have an 8car 1972 unit formed 2x4 cars 1234+5678; the only thing that is going to happen, except extreme cases, is to split 1234 from 5678 and 1234 gets to mate 5'6'7'8' - 5'6'7'8 has to be the right way round to mate. If it is the wrong way round, all that needs doing is ensuring either 1234+5678 or 1'2'3'4+'5'6'7'8 are worked on to depot the right way round ex traffic. No need for 'turning' trips. So 1234+5678 = 8765+4321 and can be turned in traffic becomes 1234+5'6'7'8 = 8'7'6'5'+4321 and turned in traffic. Why turn a whole unit then, when they turn anyway, on the running line loops.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Jun 2, 2024 22:44:10 GMT
Which was almost a daily occurrence.Used to be 7 WWR and 8 RWR AM stablers at Hainault,sometimes due to service disruptions could end up with more WWR than booked so eight cars sometimes got turned.If we had to send a train in service WWR the line controller had to be told it’s running number in case a push out was required. As I recall, A-D was a normal pushout. But the D end carried a large spring behind the coupler head, so an A-A emergency coupling could only be split in the depot with some difficulty. And a D-D emergency coupling would only work with a heavy, bulky cast iron emergency coupler adaptor which was carried on each train. It fooled each train that it was coupling with an A end.
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 3, 2024 11:21:47 GMT
On some fleets you couldn't couple A/A or D/D, you could only couple A to D, hence the need for turning trips. 1972 stock in particular only had an automatic coupler on the 4 car units (32xx and 33xx cars, with a mechanical coupler on the 35xx car). Yes, but that relates to coupling cars to cars to form units. My question is about turning whole units, why, on a line where all units routinely turn, some many times a day, need special trips ? So you have an 8car 1972 unit formed 2x4 cars 1234+5678; the only thing that is going to happen, except extreme cases, is to split 1234 from 5678 and 1234 gets to mate 5'6'7'8' - 5'6'7'8 has to be the right way round to mate. If it is the wrong way round, all that needs doing is ensuring either 1234+5678 or 1'2'3'4+'5'6'7'8 are worked on to depot the right way round ex traffic. No need for 'turning' trips. So 1234+5678 = 8765+4321 and can be turned in traffic becomes 1234+5'6'7'8 = 8'7'6'5'+4321 and turned in traffic. Why turn a whole unit then, when they turn anyway, on the running line loops. The simple answer is you could end up with a good train you couldn’t use as the units were right and wrong way round hence booked turning paths in the WTT.At Hainault they were part of train crew duties,at Golders Green they used the test train crew.
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Jun 3, 2024 12:35:31 GMT
I am still lost.
I know the bit about A and D ends and all the rest. But, as I said, that applies to forming the unit up.
0nce the complete unit is formed, what need then is there to turn it ?
If you have a line like Northern, the things turn day in day out if not by the hour, so a unit in specific north to south orientation has no meaning.
On the Central, if there are zero through workings Hainault < > Woodford then all stay the same orientation; so the only need then is out of course working when does traverse the loop one way. Is that all ?
But even then I don't fully get this. If the entire 1962 fleet is correctly formed they were symmetric, each 4car half unit a mirror image of the other. Why did it then matter which way round each complete 8car unit is with respect to each other or the east west geography ?
I do not see how a reversed 1962 8car correctly formed within unit - just back to front - is not a 'good train'.
Nor how you can have any non 'good' trains on the Northern; every time one traverses Kennington it reverses orientation so on that argument alternates 'good' 'not good'.
There must be some detail subtlety here not yet explained.
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Jun 3, 2024 12:52:54 GMT
Which was almost a daily occurrence.Used to be 7 WWR and 8 RWR AM stablers at Hainault,sometimes due to service disruptions could end up with more WWR than booked so eight cars sometimes got turned.If we had to send a train in service WWR the line controller had to be told it’s running number in case a push out was required. So, does it boil down to a case of combining 2 eventualities- a disorientated Central unit that then either fails and needs a push out or has to go push out another ? Swiss cheese holes come to mind - push outs are not exactly common are they ? Probability of one failing or being first train behind a failure must be incredibly low. And still that does not explain Northern line.
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 3, 2024 12:58:22 GMT
Basically they really didn’t want WWR trains in service on the Central because of the emergency coupling issues so we had the turning moves to balance the right and wrong way trains,if we had too many right way trains we’d turn them as otherwise they would be WWR after entering service via Grange Hill.On the Northern it was only units that got turned as so many trains were turned in service during the day it wasn’t worth it.
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Jun 3, 2024 16:45:02 GMT
Some further notes: On 59/62TS the buffing design meant the buffer was all on the D car. So to couple D to D needed a D-D coupling adaptor which used to be carried as emergency equipment. Took 2 people to lift and fit really and a right faff. You'd need that for a D to D pushout. A to A no buffer contact so not ideal for a push and you had to use insulating shields (known as Prespahns) to prevent the incompatible electrical connections happening. So Central line were quite correct wanting all trains the same way round!! From 67TS onwards both cars had buffers so physical coupling was possible. Still needed the Prespahns unless the train was designed to be reversible by its electrical stud layout and wiring assignment.
The ones that were designed to be reversible when new were A stock, C stock, 92TS(Central) and 95TS(Northern). 96TS(Jubilee) also has a reversible electrical stud layout but mainly as a design lead into 95TS. Jubilee units are not really reversible even before there were 7 car trains because the de-icers are all of one end and the filling facilities at Stratford Market Depot are set out for that one way round. I think some other details also preclude reversibility. I seem to recall A stock was made non reversible as part of Refurb or OPO conversion.
The 92TS reversibility makes for fun in traction gapping assessments since there are 4 possible layouts for the two middle units for a particular direction of travel!
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 3, 2024 16:53:42 GMT
Weren’t the de-icers still double ended as the Chesham shuttle was still in operation then?
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Jun 3, 2024 18:34:08 GMT
Weren’t the de-icers still double ended as the Chesham shuttle was still in operation then? Makes good sense. I don't know how many double enders there were in all after refurb but it would be a good idea for the de-icers to be double enders for train availability. I think everything was 'handed' though so one type of single ender could couple to one specific end of a double ender and so on. So on a bad day things still might not work out well.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Jun 3, 2024 19:13:03 GMT
Perhaps the Central line convention, of all facing west on the main, dates back to Standard stock days and opening of the eastern extensions. There were far more failures back in those days with major delays to passengers. So correctly facing trains arrive at Hainault depot at both ends to stable, but those via Woodford now face the opposite direction to those via Newbury Park. To avoid trains turning on the loop back to town, they must return to service back the way they arrived. But if service variations meant that more than scheduled arrived that night, there will be insufficient trains to meet the morning schedule formed correct direction. Say the last few stablers arrived via Newbury Park due to a points failure at the Roding Valley junction preventing stabling via Woodford. The failure is fixed by morning, but the depot is hard pressed to provide correct facing trains. I guess they would be diverted in the morning to enter service the direction they arrived, with service implications. But if it had happened earlier, then turning trips could have been arranged to ensure the morning start up went to schedule.
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 3, 2024 21:14:58 GMT
Turning trips were only available around lunchtime,if you had an imbalance of WWR stock at night you just had to book them into service via Hainault,it wasn’t always possible to arrange to have them return to depot via G/Hill to turn them as you had to book trains back to depot for cleaning and maintenance.
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 3, 2024 21:21:24 GMT
Talking about stock imbalances after one of the Leyton collisions Hainault ended up +12 on the stock balance,there were trains stabled on south shunting necks,between sheds.With the controller pinching stablers to make up the stock shortage at the west end of the line there was only 3 stablers out of 15 at Hainault the next day.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,414
|
Post by metman on Jun 3, 2024 21:33:24 GMT
Most of the ‘modern’ stock operating is now reversible which includes the 1995 stock, 1992 stock and the S stock.
The 1996 on the Jubilee and 2009 stock on the Vic are handed as they don’t have opportunities for turning.
From memory the 1973 stock is handed and therefore can be effected by the Heathrow loop. All the single end units only have a mechanical coupler with a wedgelock at the double ended units and on the UNDM cars.
The 1972 stock was designed for the Northern and Kennington Loop so originally the 3 car unit could couple to either the 32xx or the 33XX cab. This ability was lost during OPO conversion where the 33XX cab was confined to the middle of the train.
Finally, my favourite the A60/62 stock which also lost its flexibility with OPO conversion. Previously any end could couple to any other A or D end which did allow temporary formations such as 5043-6056-6057-5057 (two D end cars). As most A stock trains were 8 cars and uncoupling had ceased some years before, the loss of flexibility was well covered. Some trains were run as 4 cars (Chesham shuttle and East London Line) so 26 double Enders were kept. It was known to send four car units up to Watford to be turned to suit the depot’s requirements and it was always strange to see a white cab front running up the mainline (not in passenger service off course!).
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,330
|
Post by Colin on Jun 3, 2024 21:37:57 GMT
I am still lost. I know the bit about A and D ends and all the rest. But, as I said, that applies to forming the unit up. 0nce the complete unit is formed, what need then is there to turn it ?If you have a line like Northern, the things turn day in day out if not by the hour, so a unit in specific north to south orientation has no meaning. **Edit - part of quote removed as irrelevant to my reply** I do not see how a reversed 1962 8car correctly formed within unit - just back to front - is not a 'good train'. Nor how you can have any non 'good' trains on the Northern; every time one traverses Kennington it reverses orientation so on that argument alternates 'good' 'not good'. There must be some detail subtlety here not yet explained. OK, let's have a bash at this..... Before we start, I am not 95 stock trained, but for the sake of keeping things simple I'm assuming a Northern line 95 stock train is made up of two 3 car units. Nominally these will be made up of xx number of "North facing" units and an equal number of "south facing" units. These units will be numbered in a particular manner - for example all the even numbered units are "North facing" and all the "South facing" units are odd numbers (again I don't know which way round it's done on the Northern line but humour me). Crucially, you cannot couple two even numbered "North facing" units together; nor can you couple two odd numbered "South facing" units together. Now obviously trains will naturally turn around in service, but they will always be made up of one even numbered unit and one odd numbered unit. Now lets say for example you've got two defective trains in the same depot, one "North facing" and one "South facing" (so the unit numbers on the first train are even-odd and on the other train they're odd-even). The defect on the "North facing train is on car one (even end) and the defect on the "South facing" train is on car six (even end).........that means both good units are odd numbered "South" units which can't be coupled together. Had both trains been facing the same way, the good units would be an odd and an even which can be coupled together to make a "good" train. Hope that makes some sort of sense.....
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Jun 4, 2024 4:19:39 GMT
I happened to travel on several Northern line trains yesterday and noted that trains can be formed of two odd numbered or two even numbered units as well as one of each. So I don't think there are North and South units.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,330
|
Post by Colin on Jun 4, 2024 10:08:42 GMT
Ah!
Well that's my explanation disproved then. I'll leave it posted though as the theory behind it may well have applied at some time or other somewhere on LU.
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 4, 2024 11:12:12 GMT
Most of the ‘modern’ stock operating is now reversible which includes the 1995 stock, 1992 stock and the S stock. The 1996 on the Jubilee and 2009 stock on the Vic are handed as they don’t have opportunities for turning. From memory the 1973 stock is handed and therefore can be effected by the Heathrow loop. All the single end units only have a mechanical coupler with a wedgelock at the double ended units and on the UNDM cars. The 1972 stock was designed for the Northern and Kennington Loop so originally the 3 car unit could couple to either the 32xx or the 33XX cab. This ability was lost during OPO conversion where the 33XX cab was confined to the middle of the train. Finally, my favourite the A60/62 stock which also lost its flexibility with OPO conversion. Previously any end could couple to any other A or D end which did allow temporary formations such as 5043-6056-6057-5057 (two D end cars). As most A stock trains were 8 cars and uncoupling had ceased some years before, the loss of flexibility was well covered. Some trains were run as 4 cars (Chesham shuttle and East London Line) so 26 double Enders were kept. It was known to send four car units up to Watford to be turned to suit the depot’s requirements and it was always strange to see a white cab front running up the mainline (not in passenger service off course!). Actually the 33xx cars became permanent middle motors with the fitting of PEAs.
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Jun 4, 2024 16:05:13 GMT
OK, let's have a bash at this..... Before we start, I am not 95 stock trained, but for the sake of keeping things simple I'm assuming a Northern line 95 stock train is made up of two 3 car units. Nominally these will be made up of xx number of "North facing" units and an equal number of "south facing" units. These units will be numbered in a particular manner - for example all the even numbered units are "North facing" and all the "South facing" units are odd numbers (again I don't know which way round it's done on the Northern line but humour me). Crucially, you cannot couple two even numbered "North facing" units together; nor can you couple two odd numbered "South facing" units together. Now obviously trains will naturally turn around in service, but they will always be made up of one even numbered unit and one odd numbered unit. Now lets say for example you've got two defective trains in the same depot, one "North facing" and one "South facing" (so the unit numbers on the first train are even-odd and on the other train they're odd-even). The defect on the "North facing train is on car one (even end) and the defect on the "South facing" train is on car six (even end).........that means both good units are odd numbered "South" units which can't be coupled together. Had both trains been facing the same way, the good units would be an odd and an even which can be coupled together to make a "good" train. Hope that makes some sort of sense..... Ah! Well that's my explanation disproved then. I'll leave it posted though as the theory behind it may well have applied at some time or other somewhere on LU. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) for the effort though; your way of thinking is the same as mine in one part - but not in another with others. I agree, in general, (re)forming up trains in depots with your north facing and south facing analogy if that is what needed to be done. Never mind A ends D ends or such stuff, north and south explains it just as well. Where I am not understanding - and what others are saying - is that I see that bit as applies only to forming a unit correctly in a depot. Once the thing is in traffic, there can not be a need to turn a Northern line unit into a certain n-s orientation as it is going to invert s-n n-s s-n etc every time it goes via Kennington loop. Unless someone is going to now say there are certain units that must not route via Kennington loop. Which I am 99.9999% sure will be new info to all if there are such units.
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 4, 2024 17:11:43 GMT
Think it’s irrelevant whether trains go round Kennington loop,handing units was designed out of 95TS you can couple two odd number units or two even number units.
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Jun 4, 2024 20:27:06 GMT
Think it’s irrelevant whether trains go round Kennington loop,handing units was designed out of 95TS you can couple two odd number units or two even number units. Yes. Irrelvant to 95TS I have been assuming people who introduced Northern into this discussion were referring historically to before 95TS just in the same way Central discussion is about before 92TS.
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Jun 4, 2024 20:54:23 GMT
Ah yes NL Operations must have been harder pre 95TS. 7 car trains for one thing so you needed to make the formations from a 3 car and a 4 car right way round to each other and at one time there were 59TS and 62TS which I think were compatible with each other and 72 Mk 1 and 72 Mk 2 that weren't or at least not fully? Not quite sure about the 72TS during their 2PO days on the Northern.
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 4, 2024 21:14:34 GMT
There was no booked stock for particular trains in the WTT,any stock could run on any train except in the winter as only 59TS had de-icing trailers so they were on booked de-icing trains.Still had the problems of RWR & WWR units,the most frustrating thing was if you had a good 7 car in the depot but one unit was59TS & one was 72TS.
|
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,957
|
Post by towerman on Jun 4, 2024 21:16:29 GMT
Don’t know if it’s changed since the early 90s,there was only de-icing filling facilities at Morden.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,414
|
Post by metman on Jun 6, 2024 4:12:46 GMT
Ah yes NL Operations must have been harder pre 95TS. 7 car trains for one thing so you needed to make the formations from a 3 car and a 4 car right way round to each other and at one time there were 59TS and 62TS which I think were compatible with each other and 72 Mk 1 and 72 Mk 2 that weren't or at least not fully? Not quite sure about the 72TS during their 2PO days on the Northern. I believe when first introduced the 1972 Mark 1 and 2 stocks were not compatible. It was only when the Mk2 stock had left the Northern to go onto the Jubilee (via the Bakerloo) and then started to return to the Northern when the first batch of 1983 stock arrived on the Jubilee, that the modifications were made to allow inter (train and unit) working to be employed.
|
|