London Road Shunt Tunnel

[baboonfish]

Hello everyone, 

I'm writing a horror novel set partially in the underground. The premise is that tunneling for the Bakerloo line extension disturbs an ancient entity. I have been most interested to read about the possibility of a plague pit at the end of the shunt tunnel at London Road. 

Besides the obvious speculation, are there any LU staff or drivers on here who have been in the tunnel regularly? Any creepy happenings? What is actually at the far end of the tunnel? I spoke to one driver today who said he'd not ever used the tunnel in 10 years of driving, so I assume it is very rarely used. I also note it was recently refurbished to improve the structual intergrity.

It interests me greatly that the tunnel terminates somewhere underneath St Georges' Cathedral and I wonder if there was perhaps some kind of burial site in the crypts of the church rather than pits from earlier times. I cannot find any record of burials around St Georges from the 1600s and it appears it was mostly marshland, although it's perfectly possible it could have been a plague pit. I gather there was a pub nearby called the Dog and Duck and some kind of sanitarium (a precursor to the Bedlam/IWM site perhaps), so I'm sure there's lots more interesting history about the area, both recorded and lost. I'm also interested to know why this part of London is such a bastion of Catholicism. 

Aside from the London Road depot, my novel also features Kennington station and the infamous loop, Lambeth Road's unused elevator shaft, and the initial 'disturbance' takes place in the debated original Bakerloo tunnels that may have been partially or wholly backfilled, which I have read about with interest also. It later ventures into the sewer system. As an aside, if anyone knows of any points where the sewer and underground systems connect, I would be most interested. 

Thanks for reading. 

[jimbo]

Presume "original Bakerloo tunnels that may have been partially or wholly backfilled" refers to the sidings beyond Elephant platforms. They originally lay beneath New Kent Road, but were filled and rebuilt under Walworth Road in preparation for the Camberwell Extension. When exactly was this done, and why, since the extension was never started?

[zbang]

Sounds vaguely reminiscent of the Bryant & May mysteries. That said, I'd be somewhat surprised if the sewers and underground tunnels touched although I've been surprised before. The deep tube lines would be too far down and the sub-surface for the most part too far up. (There must be some maps of this.... goes looking through some books....)

[revupminster]

Shades of Quatermass and the Pit (Hobbs End) and Death Line. In Cloak Lane between Cannon Street and Mansion House there is a memorial to a plague pit, I think, that had to be moved when the District Line was built.

[brigham]

What exactly is "infamous" about the Kennington loop?

[baboonfish]

Jun 21, 2024 5:27:39 GMT zbang said:

Sounds vaguely reminiscent of the Bryant & May mysteries. That said, I'd be somewhat surprised if the sewers and underground tunnels touched although I've been surprised before. The deep tube lines would be too far down and the sub-surface for the most part too far up. (There must be some maps of this.... goes looking through some books....)

OH, I will check that one out - I assume you mean book 8 Off the Rails. My story is darker and leaning more into horror than mystery/detective although it has plenty of police procedural so this is a great comparison title, thank you! (finding good comps is an eternal pain).  

I believe the sewers are exceptionally close at Baker Street and they leaked into the station platforms at some point. I've found quite a few flooding incidents which may be sewer related which suggests they are close at many points, but whether there's an actual direct access - well, my story is fiction so I can make one if I like haha.

[baboonfish]

Jun 21, 2024 7:27:55 GMT brigham said:

What exactly is "infamous" about the Kennington loop?

I was referring to the supposed hauntings, and ghost sightings in and around Kennington and the loop. 

[baboonfish]

Jun 21, 2024 1:53:21 GMT jimbo said:

Presume "original Bakerloo tunnels that may have been partially or wholly backfilled" refers to the sidings beyond Elephant platforms. They originally lay beneath New Kent Road, but were filled and rebuilt under Walworth Road in preparation for the Camberwell Extension. When exactly was this done, and why, since the extension was never started?

Interesting. There seems to be some debate about these. Are you saying there are other unused tunnels down there that are not backfilled? My story is of course fiction so the fact there are/was unused tunnels at E&C is good enough. My imagination can do the rest, but I do like as much crossover with reality as possible, although the actual starting of the Bakerloo line extension is probably fiction on a par with any ancient malignant entity I can dream up! 

[baboonfish]

Jun 21, 2024 5:56:33 GMT revupminster said:

Shades of Quatermass and the Pit (Hobbs End) and Death Line. In Cloak Lane between Cannon Street and Mansion House there is a memorial to a plague pit, I think, that had to be moved when the District Line was built.

Death line is definitely on my watch list as research for my book. Quartermass and the Pit -was not aware of that one but it sounds much more sci fi so I'll probably swerve that one. Thanks for the recs though! 

[towerman]

I worked at London Road shunting cabin at times in the 90s,only ever used the shunt tunnel once to make up a train of defective stock to return to Stonebridge Pk.

[Tom]

Jun 21, 2024 7:27:55 GMT brigham said:

What exactly is "infamous" about the Kennington loop?

The smell!

[towerman]

Used for years by train crew as an unofficial urinal.🤢

[starlight73]

There’s an old thread about the bakerloo tunnels beyond Elephant & Castle.

districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/24028/original-tunnel-alignment-elephant-castle

From that thread, it seems they were begun for a 1940s extension to Camberwell. But then the extension was abandoned. Because of the cost of maintaining the tunnels and pumping out water, it was cheaper to back-fill most of the tunnel and brick it up. Correct me if I’m wrong!

There is a mention of a third tunnel at E&C that runs parallel to one of the Bakerloo platforms and sidings.

Edit - Plus there were the original tunnels from the Bakerloo’s construction, which headed east instead of south. (Carto Metro map). These seem to also have been filled in according to the thread

[jimbo]

Seems to be some confusion there starlight73 . The original Bakerloo had overrun tunnels to the east, which were reported as quite short. The 1940s overrun tunnels were on the new route towards Camberwell, but there is no evidence they were ever any longer than today, just fitting a 7-car train. The length of original sidings filled is quite short because the old and new tunnels share the same alignment for some distance as they curve apart. Also the crossover in the current sidings is on the original northbound siding alignment, I believe. Thus, the CartoMetro map presents this incorrectly. I don't think there is any sign of bricking up. It seems that the new iron-clad tunnels were driven through the temporary fill of the old sidings. Is there any contemporaneous report of these works?

I wonder if the new siding tunnels were part of the process of lengthening the Bakerloo Line trains from 6-car to 7-car. Perhaps the old sidings were only long enough for a 6-car train to stable. To lengthen those sidings by 1-car would seem a waste of money when the plan was to take a new alignment towards Camberwell. But the money wasn't agreed for the new line yet. It would seem to me sensible to instead build the new alignment sufficient for 7-car stabling. This achieves the aim of providing longer sidings and would not be wasted money if the extension works continued along that route a few years later.

The current plan is to revert to the New Kent Road alignment for Lewisham but, perhaps to avoid the complications of these old and new sidings in waterlogged ground, works will start south of Lambeth North towards a new Elephant & Castle station connected to the new Northern Line ticket hall now under construction. The current Elephant platforms will remain available for reversing and stabling, perhaps like Charing Cross on the Jubilee Line. The Yerkes era station will provide another location ideal for filming, especially with the recent loss of rail connection to Aldwych.

The Wikipedia entry on Bakerloo Line states “Apart from the extension of the sidings south of Elephant & Castle, no work on the extension took place before the Second World War ...” which suggests that the works started in 1939 or earlier. Bakerloo Line trains were lengthened from 6-car 1938 tube stock with the addition of a standard stock trailer car, known as 58 trailers, which were converted in 1938 according to the Wikipedia page on London Underground 1938 Stock. So, the two changes appear to be contemporary, although more detailed confirmation would be welcomed.

[jimbo]

1939 was the start of Bakerloo Line to Stanmore, so 6- to 7-car trains was probably part of a line upgrade to cope with additional traffic, and the new Elephant sidings were part of this line upgrade project. The current 7-car trains are 373ft 8.5in over couplers, so a 6-car would have been 320ft 10.5in, similar to 1938 stock dimensions. The old Elephant sidings were reported as 325ft SB siding, 360ft NB siding in 1920 link here so needed lengthening, and new sidings on the proposed extension route must have been the most economic solution at the time.

[etr220]

The LPTB Annual Reports seem all to record the Bakerloo extension to Camberwell (2 miles) as 'authorised but in abeyance'.
The 5th, dated 30th June 1938, states 'work commenced on lengthening Bakerloo line platforms', hoped to be complete in readiness for the projection of Bakerloo trains to Stanmore in autumn 1939. Also work commenced on two new siding tunnels at E&C, and lengthening of platforms - target 'by end of 1939'. Two notes on the last: apparently extra parliamentary powers were not needed, presumably it was done under those for the Camberwell extension; and 'a new crossover was provide at Lambeth North to facilitate traffic operation and would be 'completed shortly'
The 7th Report, date 31st December 1940, says work at E&C was 'approaching completion', other lengthenings were complete, apart from finishings.

[jimbo]

Interesting to see 'a new crossover was provide at Lambeth North to facilitate traffic operation and would be 'completed shortly'. I presume this would be a facing crossover in addition to an existing trailing crossover, to allow full service reversal there whilst tunneling works at Elephant caused that to be closed. I assumed it had always been there. It proves very useful during disruption. During points failures at Elephant the entire operation moved to Lambeth to supervise stepping back etc, at least back in the late 1970s when I was on the trains.

[DWS]

The facing crossover at Lambeth North was to allow trains that had de trained at Waterloo to run into London Road depot. Before it was provided trains for London Road depot had to shunt from the northbound road to go to the depot.

[jimbo]

Interesting. So is that the crossover that was provided in 1938? Or was that always there, and it was the trailing crossover that was provided then? Anyway, the pair now provide a duplicate of reversing facilities at Elephant as a useful substitute when needed.

[baboonfish]

Anyone on here who has been at the far end of the tunnel and can describe it to me? Is it a creepy place, being 'under' the church above? Any creepy happenings?

[DWS]

Jun 24, 2024 21:26:48 GMT jimbo said:

Interesting. So is that the crossover that was provided in 1938? Or was that always there, and it was the trailing crossover that was provided then? Anyway, the pair now provide a duplicate of reversing facilities at Elephant as a useful substitute when needed.

I don’t now if the signalling at Lambeth North now allows southbound trains to reverse in both platforms at this present time.

When I was a signalman at Lambeth North southbound trains could only reverse in the southbound platform to reverse back northbound.

Or reverse via London Road depot.

[tut]

Jun 24, 2024 22:11:55 GMT DWS said:

I don’t now if the signalling at Lambeth North now allows southbound trains to reverse in both platforms at this present time.

When I was a signalman at Lambeth North southbound trains could only reverse in the southbound platform to reverse back northbound.

Or reverse via London Road depot.

It does. BR2 has three routes: to SB, to NB and to Depot.

[Tom]

Jun 24, 2024 21:29:40 GMT baboonfish said:

Anyone on here who has been at the far end of the tunnel and can describe it to me? Is it a creepy place, being 'under' the church above? Any creepy happenings?

You mean south of Elephant and Castle? I've been there, but not for nearly twenty years. I didn't find it particularly creepy but it was hot and stuffy.

[baboonfish]

Jun 26, 2024 22:27:36 GMT Tom said:

Jun 24, 2024 21:29:40 GMT baboonfish said:

Anyone on here who has been at the far end of the tunnel and can describe it to me? Is it a creepy place, being 'under' the church above? Any creepy happenings?

You mean south of Elephant and Castle? I've been there, but not for nearly twenty years. I didn't find it particularly creepy but it was hot and stuffy.

The shunt tunnel at London Road. 

[jimbo]

How long is the shunt tunnel? Will it hold a complete train? Was it lengthened from 6- to 7-cars when the Elephant sidings were realigned? Or does it just hold a few cars for shunting clear of the points?

Found these: link, other link  internal diameter of 3.81m is bigger than the oft quoted about 11 feet 8 inches (3.56 m)!

[jimbo]

Jun 22, 2024 11:19:27 GMT starlight73 said:

There’s an old thread about the bakerloo tunnels beyond Elephant & Castle. districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/24028/original-tunnel-alignment-elephant-castle

..... There is a mention of a third tunnel at E&C that runs parallel to one of the Bakerloo platforms and sidings. .....

Was this third tunnel built as a running tunnel for a third platform at Elephant? I think that was once planned, but then the idea became to build three platforms at Camberwell.

The old thread says that it became used for pumping equipment.