Tube Staffing and Rolling Stock ownership before LPTB days

[etr220]

Within the 'Combine'/UERL/Undergound group, before the formation of the LPTB in 1933, how were staff employed, and rolling stock owned? For a normal statutory railway, that would be the employer and rolling stock owner - so for the group it would have been the MDR, LER, C&SL and CLR (if I remember them all), but the Undergound group was not 'normal' in this respect. So how was it done? Were staff owned, and rolling stock owned:

• 'communally', by the group, i.e. UERL, and deployed as required
• separately by the individual companies, but pooled (so only nominal ownership and employer), being used communally 
  
• completely separately, by the individual companies, and only to work their bit of the system

or something else? Was there any change over the years?

Certainly there only seems to have been one rolling stock list/numbering system... (I've never seen a reference indicating otherwise)

[roythebus]

Some of the rolling stock was jointly owned with the main line companies, and some owned wholly by the main line companies but maintained by the operating Underground company. District Line G and H stock springs to ind, joint with the LMSR as the joint line from Bow road to Upminster, and bakerloo stock joint with the LMSR for the Watford line.

[brigham]

Some 1938 tube stock was LNER, though sadly not liveried as such.

[billbedford]

Jun 25, 2024 7:40:16 GMT brigham said:

Some 1938 tube stock was LNER, though sadly not liveried as such.

Which livery would you have preferred? Green and cream, full ersatz teak, or dull brown?

[burkitt]

Coronation blue, of course

[brigham]

Tyneside Electric red-and-cream, of course.

[etr220]

Jun 24, 2024 23:38:08 GMT roythebus said:

Some of the rolling stock was jointly owned with the main line companies, and some owned wholly by the main line companies but maintained by the operating Underground company. District Line G and H stock springs to ind, joint with the LMSR as the joint line from Bow road to Upminster, and bakerloo stock joint with the LMSR for the Watford line.

Yes. But who was the (nominal) owner of Underground's share? UERL or LER+MDR?

Note re District line east end ownership, pre 1933:

MDR ended at Mansion House, thence to Vallance Road Junction (between St Mary's Jn and Whitechapel Stn) Met & MDR Joint; thence to Campbell Road Jn Whitechapel & Bow Jt (MDR & LT&S/Mid/LMS in succession); thence LT&S/Mid/LMS in succession. Quite what the legal basis under which the service was operated escapes me - 'by agreement' is perhaps the simplest way of putting it.

[spsmiler]

Jun 25, 2024 19:06:03 GMT brigham said:

Tyneside Electric red-and-cream, of course.

In reality those colours were very similar to that of the LPTB, although perhaps the shades of the colours were slightly different and the LNER painted the carriage ends black whilst the LTPB painted the car ends the same colour as the sides.

By the end of the war the LNER's 'electric train' livery had changed. Technically it was Marlborough blue lower sides / Quaker grey upper sides (ie: window level) but a post-war colour photo (of a 1937 Tyneside Electrics train) shows that in reality all that had happened was the red was replaced with Garter blue.

A small number of the first carriages for the Shenfield electrification were painted in the LNER livery but British Rail repainted them green before they had entered passenger service. This is known because the blue paint was found when a carriage was being rubbed down prior to repainting after a small prang. Alas no colour photos are known to exist therefore the exact shades of blue (etc) remain unknown.

[roythebus]

It makes sense that the LNER had some ownership as the Northern Line stock as it had taken over the Allypally and Edgware lines from the LNER.