Metropolitan Line City Service

[superteacher]

In the mid 70s, whet was the duration of the morning and evening peak services to the city?

Did all Amersham and Chesham trains terminate at Liverpool Strwet?

[Chris M]

I presume that you wrote that on your phone and "oral" is an autocorrect failure for "peak"?

[revupminster]

I was about in the 70s but not on the Met. I would have thought Aldgate, Liverpool Street and Moorgate would have been used to reverse trains.

[metman]

Good question I would need to track down at Working Time Table (WTT) from the period but I know there were inter peak stablers at some of the termini stated.

I believe the Amersham and limited Chesham trains did start/finish at Liverpool Street which was a legacy from the old loco hauled days. Some Watford and Uxbridge trains used Moorgate for stabling as well.

Once stepping back was introduced in about 1990s Aldgate was used a lot more and Moorgate was used less and Liverpool St bay had already perished in 1982?

[superteacher]

Jul 7, 2024 0:22:48 GMT Chris M said:

I presume that you wrote that on your phone and "oral" is an autocorrect failure for "peak"?

Yes Chris - duly corrected now!


EDIT - I’ve found this old thread, although it doesn’t address my original question about the duration of the peak services.

districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/22851/met-line-1975

[jimbo]

Liverpool Street was controlled by Farringdon signalmen, who applied for a pay upgrade because of their volume of work. Management solved this by extending the few bay road reversers to Aldgate, relieving their work pressure and avoiding a pay rise!

[towerman]

In the peaks early 70s Amersham/ Chesham trains reversed at Liverpool St,Uxbridge and Watford at Aldgate.There was a train stabled at Aldgate and Moorgate between peaks and I think a couple of Circle Line stabled at Aldgate overnight.There was two direct Chesham to London AM and the reverse PM.

[goldenarrow]

I just had a sweeping look at timetables I've got circa 1977-1980. In brief, short and sweet with some caveats.

A AM Peak 8-9 am snapshot shows a 13tph City service made up of:
4tph Aldgate from Uxbridge (semi-fast)
2tph Aldgate from Uxbridge (all stations)
4tph Liverpool Street from Amersham (fast)
2tph Aldgate from Amersham (semi-fast)
1tph Aldgate from Watford (all stations)

First AM City service originating north of Wembley Park, 0706 Uxbridge - Aldgate (all)/0709 Amersham - Liverpool St. (fast). Last AM City service, 0912 Watford - Aldgate (all)/0916 Uxbridge - Moorgate (all). A handful of earlier starters worked through to the City, the first leaving Finchley Road at 0519.

A PM Peak 5-6 pm snapshot shows a 14tph City service made up of:
4tph Aldgate to Uxbridge (semi-fast)
2tph Aldgate to Uxbridge (all stations)
2tph Liverpool Street to Amersham (fast)
2tph Liverpool Street to Chesham (fast)
2tph Aldgate to Amersham (semi-fast)
2tph Aldgate to Watford (all stations)

First PM City departure, 1603 Moorgate - Watford (all)/1605 Aldgate - Uxbridge (all). Last PM City departure beyond Wembley Park, 1808 Aldgate - Uxbridge (all)/1828 Liverpool St. - Amersham (fast). A handful of stablers finished at Wembley Park, the last leaving Aldgate at 1924.

[d7666]

Jul 7, 2024 0:22:48 GMT Chris M said:

I presume that you wrote that on your phone and "oral" is an autocorrect failure for "peak"?

Off topic - but I love decoding people's typos like that.

[superteacher]

goldenarrow would that early departure from Finchley Road not have been a H&C / Circle working?

[spsmiler]

It might be interesting to compare the 1977 - 1980 timetable with the timetable from (say) 20 years earlier.

I bet there were more fast trains, with more non-stopping Harrow OT Hill - not just to Chesham / Amersham / Aylesbury but also to Watford and Uxbridge.

Jul 7, 2024 11:45:22 GMT jimbo said:

Liverpool Street was controlled by Farringdon signalmen, who applied for a pay upgrade because of their volume of work. Management solved this by extending the few bay road reversers to Aldgate, relieving their work pressure and avoiding a pay rise!

Surely when compared with the days when the Widened Lines were much busier their 1970s / 1980s workload would have been far lighter?

Anyway... when we recall the issues (etc) to fit the S8 trains into the bay platforms at Baker Street and Aldgate so I question if it would have been possible to get S8 trains to actually fit into Liverpool Street's bay platform?

[superteacher]

Jul 7, 2024 13:49:50 GMT spsmiler said:

Anyway... when we recall the issues (etc) to fit the S8 trains into the bay platforms at Baker Street and Aldgate so I question if it would have been possible to get S8 trains to actually fit into Liverpool Street's bay platform?

I'm not sure if "Moorgate Control" had been fitted to the bay road at Liverpool Street prior to its decommissioning, but it would have made the approach very slow, thus delaying the inner rail service as the terminating train entered the bay road.

Aldgate is a far less difficult place to reverse the Met service.

[goldenarrow]

Jul 7, 2024 13:34:36 GMT superteacher said:

goldenarrow would that early departure from Finchley Road not have been a H&C / Circle working?

Probably, along with some of the other 5 early starters although unfortunately, that detail is not shown on weekdays in the public issue booklets. The weekend key shows what are evidently C&H workings in the small hours.

[towerman]

There were 6 Circle trains stabled overnight at Neasden back in the day.

[selbiehouse]

Disregarding positioning Circle Line trains and also half minutes the situation was as follows:

WTT No. 172  9th June 1958

First ex Baker Street 7.29am, last 10.00am

First ex Liverpool Street  3.43pm, last ex Liverpool Street 7.02pm

WTT No. 261 (46 train peak service)  Feb 1977

First ex Baker Street  07.46, last 09.52

First ex Moorgate 16.04, last ex Liverpool Street 18.30

This constant erosion on the shoulder of the peak was also a feature of bus services.

[jimbo]

We used to call it the rush hour back then, but it looks like it was as spread as it is today!

[superteacher]

Jul 8, 2024 21:08:04 GMT selbiehouse said:

This constant erosion on the shoulder of the peak was also a feature of bus services.

That was reversed from around 1983 when services gradually begun to increase again.

[roythebus]

In my limited time on the Met cancelling one of the fast Chesham to London trains was akin to cancelling The Flying Scotsman so I was told by Hector the SM at Ricky!

[Chris L]

Jul 7, 2024 13:49:50 GMT spsmiler said:

Anyway... when we recall the issues (etc) to fit the S8 trains into the bay platforms at Baker Street and Aldgate so I question if it would have been possible to get S8 trains to actually fit into Liverpool Street's bay platform?

I used to go into the bay road area at Liverpool Street when inspecting air conditioning equipment. There is no way that S8 trains could have been accommodated.

Academic as an Elizabeth line ventilation shaft has severed the link.

[spsmiler]

The A stock only just fitted the bay platform there - as a schoolboy I often caught the 8:14 to Amersham from that platform, whilst on my way to school in the mornings.

I often saw how Aldgate terminating trains would have to wait for an empty platform at Aldgate and I always thought would make sense to extend the bay platform from Liverpool Street to Aldgate, as it would have made a better solution to train management - trains approaching Aldgate would have had somewhere to wait for an empty platform without delaying trains travelling towards Whitechapel / Barking (or Circles also travelling to Aldgate) and having two westbound platforms at Liverpool Street would help optimise westbound train flows in the same way that I saw in the rush hours at Whitechapel, where arriving trains frequently alternated between the two faces of each island platform.

Had this come to pass it would have greatly helped with the present-era plans for 32 trains per hour for the area around Aldgate station.

I will admit however that in my teenage schoolboy days I did not understand about building foundations etc., possibly making what I had in mind physically impossible.

[Chris L]

Nov 12, 2024 11:04:47 GMT spsmiler said:

I will admit however that in my teenage schoolboy days I did not understand about building foundations etc., possibly making what I had in mind physically impossible.

Bank vaults would have been in the way.

An Elizabeth line vent/escape shaft is in the way now.