North Acton signal failure - Sat 24th Nov

[superteacher]

This happened during the early evening (5 - 6 ish I think). When I arrived at Notting Hill Gate westbound, minor delays were being reported, but it was clear that it was going to be more than that! Trains were being held in platforms, and the 24tph service quickly caused massive blocking back.
What amazed me was just how quickly the service disintegrated. There was a 25 minute gap in service eastbound through the central area at around 6.30pm, and an almost 30 minute gap a bit later on the westbound.
Now I know that signal failures can cause major disruption, but surely things can be handled better than this? There are enough reversing points on the line, and of course the Hainault loop adds further flexibility.
Announcements were being made of a special service - Ealing to Hainault, WER - North Acton, Epping to Leytonstone etc, and Epping passengers were being advised to take the 1st train and change at Leytonstone, and then cross to platform 2 to pick up the shuttle train. I sometimes hover around in these situations, just to witness the chaos when 100 passengers trudge across the platforms, then hear an announcement that there is an Epping approaching platform 3!
It was curious, because some trains had clearly been reformed into special service numbers (i.e. 8xx for LES - EPP, 6xx for EAB - HAI), but some were left as their normal running numbers, and this situation remained for most of the evening. Around 8.00pm, I boarded a train at South Woodford which was described as going to Leytonstone. It spend 20 minutes getting from Snaresbrook to Leytonstone - the driver said it was due to a "lot of trains in the area." It's not hard to see how that happnened. At Leytonstone, platforms 1 and 2 both had trains sitting there, described as going to Epping. There was also a train on platform 3, described as going to Epping. The train on platform 2 had the signal to go, but no driver! So of course, everything was just sitting there. I think the train on platform 3 eventually became a Hainault via Woodford (why??), and moved off. The Epping train on platform 1 then changed to a Marble Arch, but no driver!
I've seen these confusing situations at Leytonstone many times during disruptions. I was watching the dot matrix inidcators, and it was hilarious! Trains appearing, then disappearing, then re-appearing! At one point, there were 3 westbound trains shown within 8 minutes - then all of a sudden, they had all gone and been replaced with the next westbound in 12 minutes!
When the Central line is running well, it's a greal line. Fast and frequent. But surely, they must improve their ability to minimise disruption when things go wrong. One driver I spoke to said that the controllers don't have a clue what's happening, so what chance have us drivers got?

[Deleted]

Yes, was a bit FUBAR'd wasn't it? No doubt the signalling system threw its rattle out of the pram again.

[superteacher]

I love that expression FUBAR - glad that someone else knows it too!

[Deleted]

Hah, surprising what you learn on the internet...

[superteacher]

tubeoperator92 said:

Hah, surprising what you learn on the internet...

Ah, but do you know what film the phrase was first heard in?

[towerman]

Don't know that one,the war one was SNAFU-situation normal,all f***ed up.

[superteacher]

FUBAR = F***ed Up Beyond All Recognition.

[railtechnician]

superteacher said:

FUBAR = F***ed Up Beyond All Recognition.

Yep first its simply IF then SNAFU and then FUBAR !

Brian

[superteacher]

Perhsps they should use those acronyms on the TFL site - much clearer than saying "severe delays"!

[edwin]

I thought re-signalling the Central line was supposed to get rid of "signal failures"?

[Deleted]

edwin said:

I thought re-signalling the Central line was supposed to get rid of "signal failures"?

I doubt you'll ever completely get rid of signal failures - it's inevitable that bits of kit go wrong from time to time. Although proper maintenance does help.......

[Tom]

edwin said:

I thought re-signalling the Central line was supposed to get rid of "signal failures"?

Bearing in mind how complicated the system was before and after resignalling, I think the opposite occurred by increasing the number of failure points!

[edwin]

How come other metro systems manage fine without having "severe delays" every bloody fortnight on what is supposed to be a "modern" line. It seems that LU are utterly incompetent when it comes down to signalling, systems like Moscow and Paris manage up to 36tph on "old" lines yet LU seems unable to get 30tph on a supposedly "modernised" line!

Rant over. I understand that now with all this PPP rubbish that it's probably not entirely LU's fault...

[Tom]

As an LU Signalling Designer (and now training to be a Principles Tester) I find your comments about incompetence to be somewhat unjustified. Having used the Central line daily for some seven or so years I don't think the problem is quite as bad as you make out.

Likewise, if you look at other metros where resignalling of long routes has been carried out, almost all have a large number of failures in the early days at the beginning of the so-called bathtub curve.

[ongarparknride]

Re: Reply #4- In "Lethal Weapon" for half a point, please? Can't remember if the original, or in Lethal Weapon 2.

[railtechnician]

edwin said:

How come other metro systems manage fine without having "severe delays" every bloody fortnight on what is supposed to be a "modern" line. It seems that LU are utterly incompetent when it comes down to signalling, systems like Moscow and Paris manage up to 36tph on "old" lines yet LU seems unable to get 30tph on a supposedly "modernised" line!

Rant over. I understand that now with all this PPP rubbish that it's probably not entirely LU's fault...

Oh dear how frustrated you sound! How frustrated do you think the workforces of Tube Lines, Metronet and others are with all the obstacles that are put in their way to prevent them from doing their job?

One of the biggest obstacles is H&S which in my opinion went too far a decade ago but it isn't going away so get used to it.
I never liked PPP which was a divide and conquer approach which in the end will just have delayed all the problems by three decades but blaming engineering for all the problems is unfair and unjustified.

Many problems are due entirely to passenger actions!
With the best maintenance in the world defects occur and thanks to the very professional approach taken to safeguard passengers from the slightest possible harm you should be grateful. There is nothing wrong with LU signalling which has one of the best safety records anywhere in the world and is installed and maintained by some of the most dedicated staff to be found in railway work.

Brian

[Deleted]

tom said:

As an LU Signalling Designer (and now training to be a Principles Tester) I find your comments about incompetence to be somewhat unjustified. Having used the Central line daily for some seven or so years I don't think the problem is quite as bad as you make out.

I have to say, as a regular user of the Central line, I don't think it's as bad as some people make out. Of course it has its bad days - but generally it's not too bad in my experience.

[edwin]

Okay everyone, I apologise for spouting rubbish. But i'm still confused over why London can't achieve frequencies as high as Paris or Moscow, even on the Central line

[Deleted]

Because the passengers are incapable of conducting themselves properly. Until passengers stop wedging doors open, hauling endless amounts of heavy bulky luggage around, blocking escalators and passages and gatelines and entrances and exits and hallways and so on, and just generally doing their best to get in the way, no LU line will ever reach its top potential TPH.

[suncloud]

theonekea said:

hauling endless amounts of heavy bulky luggage around,

Sorry, but that's exactly what I'll be doing, probably in morning peak one day this week! I'm working on the South Coast for the next 6 weeks and will be moving down there one day next week (hopefully nice and early on next week, but I have nowhere to stay yet).

You can tell people, like me, who regularly tote luggage through the tube. Unlike tourists they don't need to stop every staircase/escalator... Go at commuter pace... gather luggage before the doors open... and if need to stop pull out of the main passenger flow...

[Chris M]

Planning your journey for easy interchnange where possible is good as well! With a lot of luggage getting from the east end of the central to Heathrow its a lot easier to change at Mile End and Hammersmith than Holborn, although the journey does take a bit longer.

[suncloud]

If I'm travelling with two cases I'll try and plan for level interchange or lifts... However it's not unknown for me to attack the Spirals at Bank in morning peak with a suitcase in tow, just my small one though... It does get a bit of a bashing going full pelt through the tube though... It also adds a bit more of a challenge when going for the last tube!

[Dmitri]

edwin said:

why London can't achieve frequencies as high as Paris or Moscow, even on the Central line

<IMHO>
Too long dwell times. You have fast trains already, now you need fast punters ;D.
</IMHO>

[edwin]

I've noticed dwell times of 20 seconds at Oxford Circus in the peaks, that's good enough surely? The problems arise at stations like Bank, which probably has the largest gap on the entire network, people tend to be more cautious there, and tight curves = speed restrictions = bunching up. But Paris has even more curves than London so that screws my argument up completely.

[Deleted]

With regards to railtechnician's point about far too much H&S, I am sure that if the tipping out rules at terminal stations were relaxed so that the TO could simply close the doors normally rather than having to walk down the train and use the porter buttons, the Jub (for example) wouldn't block back so badly every evening northbound and more trains could be fitted down the pipe. (The Stanmore 3rd platform should help for that particular example, of course). This is one area where other metro systems (including the DLR) have a much easier time than LU.

I also think that railtechnician and TOK's comments about passenger action being a major contributor are also true. As I understand it, on the Hong Kong metro, to attempt to enter the train when the warning sounds that the doors are closing have started is an offence. I think the same rule should be applied on LU to keep the dwell times down.

I also worry about the affect on the RORIT of having to line up against the PEDs on entry to each station on the Jub extension. The impression is that trains come in appreciably slower than other lines, and some TOs seem to crawl in even on stations where there are no PEDs out of habit. ATO will change this though. (Sorry I realise this is supposed to be a Central Line thread).

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable like stephenk could comment on what the largest obstacles to greater line capacity are:).

[setttt]

spooky said:

As I understand it, on the Hong Kong metro, to attempt to enter the train when the warning sounds that the doors are closing have started is an offence. I think the same rule should be applied on LU to keep the dwell times down.

The same rule already exists on LU.

www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/5004.aspx

10. Trains

...

5. In the case of automatic closing train doors, no person shall enter or leave by the door when it is closing.

[Deleted]

lets just face it the central line is **** be it the trains the signalling i travelled on it everyday for 4 years between barkingside and mile end or notting hill gate and i hated it i spent 4 months as a apprentice(signalling) back in 1996 at leytonstone (before resignalling) and guess what i didnt like it either end of rant

p.s if the admins want to delete go ahead as it says its a rant from my opinion nothing more

[superteacher]

aetearlscourt said:

lets just face it the central line is **** be it the trains the signalling i travelled on it everyday for 4 years between barkingside and mile end or notting hill gate and i hated it i spent 4 months as a apprentice(signalling) back in 1996 at leytonstone (before resignalling) and guess what i didnt like it either end of rant

p.s if the admins want to delete go ahead as it says its a rant from my opinion nothing more

When I started this thread, I wasn't bashing the central line, merely suggesting that the way delays are handled by the control staff leaves a lot to be desired. Delay or no delay, there were 67 trains on the line when that signal failure occurred, and things should have been managed to a better degree than to allow a 30 min gap through the central area.

In general though, the Central line is not **** as you suggest. You can run it down all you like, but it is the quickest and most frequent service in London (peak and off peak), and the work done in recent years has enabled the 1992 stock reliability to dramatically improve.

Yes, the line is overcrowded, but that happens every day, and has always been the same. Due to this, when there are delays on the line, it is a nightmare, and these occasions tend to stick in people's minds rather than the vast majoriy of normal (if crowded) journeys.

I also agree with the comments that maximum TPH is restricted by the actions of passengers. A lot of people think the train belongs to them, and just expect the driver to re-open the doors when they get stuck. Maybe if these people were dished out with on the spot fines, they might think twice. Having said that, dwell times have come down in recent years, thinks to retraining of platform staff in the quick dispatch of trains from platforms.

[Tom]

spooky said:

With regards to railtechnician's point about far too much H&S, I am sure that if the tipping out rules at terminal stations were relaxed so that the TO could simply close the doors normally rather than having to walk down the train and use the porter buttons, the Jub (for example) wouldn't block back so badly every evening northbound and more trains could be fitted down the pipe.

Much as a lot of people would like it, that won't be happening. The problem with detraining is a major problem, and one that's causing me more than a few headaches on the NB Bakerloo line at the moment.

[edwin]

spooky said:

With regards to railtechnician's point about far too much H&S, I am sure that if the tipping out rules at terminal stations were relaxed so that the TO could simply close the doors normally rather than having to walk down the train and use the porter buttons, the Jub (for example) wouldn't block back so badly every evening northbound and more trains could be fitted down the pipe. (The Stanmore 3rd platform should help for that particular example, of course). This is one area where other metro systems (including the DLR) have a much easier time than LU.

How about a verbal warning before and after leaving the station where the train terminated? And how about restricting the amount of time spent inside the siding without tipping out as 15 minutes? The Jubilee and Northern lines won't have much of a problem though, at least I think they won't! the Northern has a reversing platform at East Finchley and Golders Green, and Morden station, as Stephenk never fails to remind us, is the best terminus on LU for high frequencies. The Jubilee is getting a third platform at Stanmore also, which suggests that the full frequency will be running all the way to Stanmore instead of reversing at Willesden Green and Wembley Park these days.

And I agree about the problems with management during a delay of some sort. I once had to wait 15 minutes for a Central line train at White City WB, yet I watched in awe as trains WB came in every minute! Let's not forget that station has a perfectly useable reversing platform that wasn't even occupied.