Leytonstone Station closed at 0702hrs. ???

[ongarparknride]

Just heard this on BBC News24 traffic news, and of course immediately powered up my trusty PC to find out the facts here.

Routine, scheduled, over-run maintenance, or the kettle in the crew signing-on cabin has broken???

Hope that any staff involved are still able to get their Yorkshire Tea and Bacon Sarnies. After all, happy staff look after the passengers well!

So, apologies if this is a forewarned event I've missed, but what is going on, please? Or, possibly, not going on?

[ongarparknride]

Apologies for answering my own thread but 0730 travel update does not mention Leytonstone, just problems on the Picc.

So you got it all sorted OK then?

From the original news broadcast I trust it didn't involve anything like a one under, so if my knowledge it's a signing-on point and my attempts at humour were misplaced, I naturally apologise and withdraw them.

[c5]

It was problems due to 'scanning' and also some signals bobbing. There are no such luxuries at Earl's Court the Picc will be rubbish until late tonight now, regardless of what the internet says!

[Deleted]

The Piccadilly seems to have been rubbish in general lately. Even when being advertised as Good Service. Although this Picc incident was due to a signal failure and, when the offending bit of wire was finally replaced, someone passed out on one of the trains. Thankfully that was dealt with swiftly.

[Deleted]

undergroundgal said:

The Piccadilly seems to have been rubbish in general lately. Even when being advertised as Good Service.

Mmmmm, JTD - how long you been on the Picc Line ;D

[Deleted]

undergroundgal said:

The Piccadilly seems to have been rubbish in general lately. Even when being advertised as Good Service. Although this Picc incident was due to a signal failure and, when the offending bit of wire was finally replaced, someone passed out on one of the trains. Thankfully that was dealt with swiftly.

Was this the signal failure between Manor House and Finsbury Park on the west? If so, I was on the train behind! Second time I've been on a train as its passed a failed signal (with permission of cause).

But agree about the Picc, what a drop in reliability, especially eastbound in afternoon peak hours! I've either had to wait ages for a train at Kings Cross, or had a stop-start journey into Arnos Grove almost every day, and its advertised as good service!

Yet when I get on with it advertised as delays, its usually fast and better! ;D

[c5]

Yes Dave that is roughly where the failure was. The Picc has late running of 40 mins normally and there is often no choice but to short trip lots!

[Deleted]

vbn said:

But agree about the Picc, what a drop in reliability, especially eastbound in afternoon peak hours! I've either had to wait ages for a train at Kings Cross, or had a stop-start journey into Arnos Grove almost every day, and its advertised as good service!

Yet when I get on with it advertised as delays, its usually fast and better! ;D ::)

Not that we're hi-jacking the thread or anything but yes, I agree - it's been the general consensus on the group that over the last few weeks the afternoon peak especially has been a nightmare. I don't know if there's a couple of newbies up at the control room or something, but it's been insane. About a week ago we had trains moving incredibly slowly on the eastbound - as I was on the gateline, I didn't get to follow any of them on Trackernet, but the supervisor said that it was taking upwards of half an hour between Kings Cross and Turnpike, with some trains taking even longer. One customer claimed it took her 20 minutes to get from Finsbury Park to Turnpike, but I do tend to view those claims with a pinch of salt. Despite this, the service status was still officially "Good Service".

[c5]

I could reveal more about how these things work, but that would be whistle-blowing! Of course if you have read the latest nonsense pie in the sky stuff printed in on the move, you can phone the Network Information Manager!

[railtechnician]

c5 said:

I could reveal more about how these things work, but that would be whistle-blowing! Of course if you have read the latest nonsense pie in the sky stuff printed in on the move, you can phone the Network Information Manager!

Haha! Some of us know how these things work! Let's face it, Arnos Grove has been a pain from a signalling standpoint ever since the resignalling of the 1980s. Unscheduled reversing of trains there has always caused or accumulated the delay.

I'm sure that Earls Court is no worse now than it was a few years ago, I bet many of those on the control desk are the same ones that were there when I was working in it.

[Deleted]

undergroundgal said:

Not that we're hi-jacking the thread or anything but yes, I agree - it's been the general consensus on the group that over the last few weeks the afternoon peak especially has been a nightmare. I don't know if there's a couple of newbies up at the control room or something, but it's been insane. About a week ago we had trains moving incredibly slowly on the eastbound - as I was on the gateline, I didn't get to follow any of them on Trackernet, but the supervisor said that it was taking upwards of half an hour between Kings Cross and Turnpike, with some trains taking even longer. One customer claimed it took her 20 minutes to get from Finsbury Park to Turnpike, but I do tend to view those claims with a pinch of salt. Despite this, the service status was still officially "Good Service".

It took me 25 mins to get from Turnpike to Arnos once last week, but generally getting from KGX to Manor House has been good. That was a "good service" day as well...

I think the Picc is relying too much on Arnos for Eastbound services, and for some reason the reversing trains I've seen now seem to come out of platform 1 most of the time, which is surely more risky and time consuming than out of 2&3!? :-/

[Deleted]

c5 said:

I could reveal more about how these things work, but that would be whistle-blowing! Of course if you have read the latest nonsense pie in the sky stuff printed in on the move, you can phone the Network Information Manager!

Oooo, I read that article. Then I read it again. (As an aside, this is the first time I've ever received a copy of on the move - maybe I only get it because I'm off my six month probation...!) Then I read it again very closely, and thought... "Clearly they DON'T want us to phone because they didn't bother providing a phone number." I get seriously confused about which phone numbers go where... the least they could have done was added it, since I assume it's only a 5-digit one...

[c5]

undergroundgal said:

c5 said:

I could reveal more about how these things work, but that would be whistle-blowing! Of course if you have read the latest nonsense pie in the sky stuff printed in on the move, you can phone the Network Information Manager!

Oooo, I read that article. Then I read it again. (As an aside, this is the first time I've ever received a copy of on the move - maybe I only get it because I'm off my six month probation...!) Then I read it again very closely, and thought... "Clearly they DON'T want us to phone because they didn't bother providing a phone number." I get seriously confused about which phone numbers go where... the least they could have done was added it, since I assume it's only a 5-digit one...

It's a 4 digit one!
Starting with the NOC prefix. I think I know what it is, I'll PM you!

[Deleted]

c5 said:

It's a 4 digit one!
Starting with the NOC prefix. I think I know what it is, I'll PM you!

PM received, ta. And four digits - that was even less likely to take them over their allocated space for the article! ;) You'd think if they were actually serious about people contacting them, they'd provide it - not all of us get told phone numbers for places and I'm absolutely paranoid about using a phone if there's the slightest chance I've got the wrong number.

[North End]

ongarparknride said:

Just heard this on BBC News24 traffic news, and of course immediately powered up my trusty PC to find out the facts here.

Routine, scheduled, over-run maintenance, or the kettle in the crew signing-on cabin has broken???

Hope that any staff involved are still able to get their Yorkshire Tea and Bacon Sarnies. After all, happy staff look after the passengers well!

So, apologies if this is a forewarned event I've missed, but what is going on, please? Or, possibly, not going on?

I've witnessed this from Earl's Court recently; on the occasion I was there the situation wasn't helped by description problems with the East End computer, meaning every train through Arnos Grove was taking an age.

[ongarparknride]

JTD, I read your reply, thanks, but your mench of "It was problems due to 'scanning' and also some signals bobbing." was a tad vague.

BRB suggests "scanning" means some reference to the programmed timetable -v- detection of destination of a train from the train itself? "Signals bobbing" to me suggests the very nasty problem of greens unexpectedly going red

Clarification, please?

No worries at all going off-thread as that's how we learn the interesting stuff, and in this instance it seems a bug at Leytonstone that was worth a "mench" seems to occur at other locations a lot more frequently?

And as Leytonstone's also signing on, rather embarrassing to read of trains standing there signalled out but with no drivers.




And on a slightly lighter note, Earl's Court is a signing on depot isn't it?

Does JTD's reply hint there is NO canteen nor even a kettle there ??

And absolutely no offence to any staff with dietary or religious preferences in food, but I understood All Good Railways ran on Yorkshire Tea and Bacon Sarnies.

What the heck is Ken Livingstone spending all his billions on, or rather NOT spending them on

If you modified a rail traction current shorting bar and took a domestic kettle along, plus got hold of a surplus shed traction current supply plug, and some insulated cable and a large insulated crocodile clip, in theory you ought to be lash up an adaptor cable so as to be able to brew up alongside your cab like the folks picnicking in the laybys ingesting all the traffic exhaust fumes beside the A20 in the early days of freedom leisure motoring?

I bet in the days of the old Metro electric Loco's, there were a couple of paint marks on the resistor banks to show where the kettle should be connected with crocodile clips... Possibly this facility extended as far as the Standard Stock, until the designers unsportingly moved the resistor banks under the car floors.

Or, perhaps, are the more experienced drivers / train ops already doing this.... in which case their getting the -210V by tapping to the running rails might, err, be the cause for the scanning and signals bobbing problems?

Could it be that a few quid spent buying decent albeit second hand catering equipment off eBay and positioning it strategically where LU staff congregate could add far disproportionate incentive and positive operational benefits, AND hence solve problems like Leytonstone Station being closed at 0702 (Got to keep on thread!!!)

As opposed, say, to drivers being charged 20p or more out of their taxed income and on which the Government presumably gets VAT, for hot water to refill their flasks?

Apologies if my lighter remarks above should have been better addressed on a new Rant thread entitled: "What are the Unions there for, please?"

;D

Cheers, All

[railtechnician]

undergroundgal said:

c5 said:

It's a 4 digit one!
Starting with the NOC prefix. I think I know what it is, I'll PM you!

PM received, ta. And four digits - that was even less likely to take them over their allocated space for the article! ;) You'd think if they were actually serious about people contacting them, they'd provide it - not all of us get told phone numbers for places and I'm absolutely paranoid about using a phone if there's the slightest chance I've got the wrong number.

You should be able to ring any of their numbers! I doubt it's altered much since we installed, there were four desks then with about fifteen consecutive 4-digit numbers. The one I used to use most often was XX01 .

Surely you are issued with an LU telephone directory, all the numbers you need are in it!

[Deleted]

railtechnician said:

You should be able to ring any of their numbers! I doubt it's altered much since we installed, there were four desks then with about fifteen consecutive 4-digit numbers. The one I used to use most often was XX01 .

Surely you are issued with an LU telephone directory, all the numbers you need are in it!

Ha.... hahaaa... haaha*snort*hahaaa.... haahaaaaa...

Don't make me laugh on my way to a dead early, please. I eventually had to sit down at Cockfosters and write down the numbers to each of the stations on our group from a list on the wall because no-one had ever given them to me. Heaven knows what I would have done if I'd been sick in my first few weeks because I didn't know the auto number for Arnos, let alone how to make it into a 'proper' phone number. Half the stations don't seem to even have a phone directory - I think I've seen a grand total of two on the group although, to be fair, it could just be that the other stations have them put away neatly somewhere completely inaccessible to anyone who doesn't know where they are and may need them in an emergency.

[Deleted]

ongarparknride said:

BRB suggests "scanning" means some reference to the programmed timetable -v- detection of destination of a train from the train itself? "Signals bobbing" to me suggests the very nasty problem of greens unexpectedly going red :o

Scanning I'm not sure about, but a "bobbing signal" generally refers to a signal that's constantly switching between red and green, not staying in either aspect for any significant length of time - in the same way that the lights flash on a level crossing sign, but alternating between two colours, not just red.

[railtechnician]

undergroundgal said:

ongarparknride said:

BRB suggests "scanning" means some reference to the programmed timetable -v- detection of destination of a train from the train itself? "Signals bobbing" to me suggests the very nasty problem of greens unexpectedly going red :o

Scanning I'm not sure about, but a "bobbing signal" generally refers to a signal that's constantly switching between red and green, not staying in either aspect for any significant length of time - in the same way that the lights flash on a level crossing sign, but alternating between two colours, not just red.

Yes a bobbing signal is as you describe usually, but not always, caused by an intermittent earth which can be the result of a dodgy blockjoint, bared track connection or other damaged cable including snakes etc.

As far as scanning goes it is a system whereby signal controls and indications are multiplexed to save line plant between the controlling site and the controlled site. There are several systems in use at LU including slow speed, high speed and S2 and the more modern SCADA systems.
For example in high speed scanning up to 108 individual control signals are multiplexed onto one pair of wires. There are seperate systems for each direction so a control will be sent on an outgoing system whilst an indication will be returned on an incoming system.
The signal operators route buttons send control signals, TD selects, P/Mc modes etc and the signal operators diagrams and status indicators receive signal states, TD select confirmation and info from the P/Mc rolls etc. Any and all information can be sent over one form of scanning or another.

So when one gets a scanning problem it can be as little as the loss of control of a single route at a site or the loss of control of the entire site!

Brian

[railtechnician]

undergroundgal said:

railtechnician said:

You should be able to ring any of their numbers! I doubt it's altered much since we installed, there were four desks then with about fifteen consecutive 4-digit numbers. The one I used to use most often was XX01 .

Surely you are issued with an LU telephone directory, all the numbers you need are in it!

Ha.... hahaaa... haaha*snort*hahaaa.... haahaaaaa...

Don't make me laugh on my way to a dead early, please. I eventually had to sit down at Cockfosters and write down the numbers to each of the stations on our group from a list on the wall because no-one had ever given them to me. Heaven knows what I would have done if I'd been sick in my first few weeks because I didn't know the auto number for Arnos, let alone how to make it into a 'proper' phone number. Half the stations don't seem to even have a phone directory - I think I've seen a grand total of two on the group although, to be fair, it could just be that the other stations have them put away neatly somewhere completely inaccessible to anyone who doesn't know where they are and may need them in an emergency.

I am suprised that telephone directories are not personal issue, they should be or at least the numbers you need for your job should be!
The Picc used to issue a Blue Filofax to new staff with some basic information for new entrants in the first few pages. It included a directory of all the auto numbers on the Picc, the numbers for the Line Service Centre, the Controlllers, the various signal operator desks, the NCC, BTP as well as the numbers for the line based engineering i.e. track and signal operations managers as well as operating officials numbers at Ash House, Bollo House and elsewhere!
It gave both the internal auto numbers and the BT interconnect numbers too where appropriate.

If I were your supervisor I would have either issued you with a list of numbers that you should know to properly undertake your duties or given you one day off normal duty to go and discover them all including a quick trip to the control room which, as anyone who has been to Earls Court and kept their eyes peeled would know, would be most informative.
Of course you should always check the traffic circular and EWSA which also give important numbers and changes to numbers!

Brian

[Tom]

railtechnician said:

The Picc used to issue a Blue Filofax to new staff with some basic information for new entrants in the first few pages.

I'm still using a Piccadilly Line Microfile, albeit with most of the Picc line info removed.

[Deleted]

Nope, never received anything at all phone number-wise - except the few listed in the Knowledge book, which isn't comprehensive, particularly clear... or at all up to date, since it seems the information was printed up in 2003. It was halfway through my second working day before anyone even bothered telling me who to call to get service updates!

[railtechnician]

undergroundgal said:

Nope, never received anything at all phone number-wise - except the few listed in the Knowledge book, which isn't comprehensive, particularly clear... or at all up to date, since it seems the information was printed up in 2003. It was halfway through my second working day before anyone even bothered telling me who to call to get service updates!

The best tip I can give anyone working at LU is to keep your eyes and ears open and make a note of anything and everything related to your job but also those things related to other areas of the business. This forum is a good place to be as I'm sure you know well enough. There is a wealth of knowledge and experience to be gleaned here from many areas of the business and it is true to say that knowledge is power. There are wonderful routes to the top of the tree these days and the only limits are your own aspirations.

In the 'good old days' service announcements and an hourly time sync beep came over the BBMS (Broadcast Breakdown Message Service) in the booking office in the form of serv(ice) advise and pass(enger) advise from HQ information at 55, Bdy. I installed the modern BBMS and other systems at NCC when it replaced the old HQ control office, AFAIK it is still in use although against the rules at many stations the speakers were covered with cash bags or other locally devised muting! Of course these days there are other systems available although BMR (Breakdown Message Recorder) still exists (probably what you are referring to - used to be just a 2 -digit auto number giving information on all lines (rather than the split line based services of today).

[Deleted]

railtechnician said:

Of course these days there are other systems available although BMR (Breakdown Message Recorder) still exists (probably what you are referring to - used to be just a 2 -digit auto number giving information on all lines (rather than the split line based services of today).

The current one I use has the option of either listening to all lines (which is then followed by other transport providers, station messages (ie, closures or no step free access), and staff information messages (anything from early clsure of a line such as the Victoria until recently to severe weather warnings).) This seems to be updated roughly every twenty minutes which makes it okay for satisfying the normal service requirements, but not disruption: Service Information boards should be updated every 30 minutes during good service, and every fifteen minutes during disruption.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to specify anywhere whether disruption refers to your station's line(s) only, nearby lines (so, say, Victoria line for Turnpike Lane), or all lines. In the latter case, you'd almost always have to update every fifteen minutes. *g*

[c5]

OneNine Voicemail is update at leat every half an hour (it rings and a password needs to be entered). It should be updated more often during incidents. Try listening to another line to compare how the Real Time Info is managed!

It will vary a lot, depending on who the operator is.

[Deleted]

undergroundgal said:

c5 said:

I could reveal more about how these things work, but that would be whistle-blowing! Of course if you have read the latest nonsense pie in the sky stuff printed in on the move, you can phone the Network Information Manager!

Oooo, I read that article. Then I read it again. (As an aside, this is the first time I've ever received a copy of on the move - maybe I only get it because I'm off my six month probation...!) Then I read it again very closely, and thought... "Clearly they DON'T want us to phone because they didn't bother providing a phone number." I get seriously confused about which phone numbers go where... the least they could have done was added it, since I assume it's only a 5-digit one...

Of course the very comprehensive list that has appeared in the traffic circular over the past few weeks was...er...missed....whilst you were reading the temp speed restrictions

Oh just checking, I can post the FREEPHONE number for the Network Duty Manager which is 0800 ....... and on that bombshell

The easiest way to get service updates is to get the SS to do some work and check the NOC intranet page - it's what we do and then radio the CSA with any changes. Plus the use of the pager.

NOC are getting worse at updating the onenine service, took 'em 50 mins to ackonwledge a service suspension the other day

[c5]

The NOC only do the Intranet. They pass service information to TfL New Media who update the website and tell the Beeb.

[railtechnician]

c5 said:

The NOC only do the Intranet. They pass service information to TfL New Media who update the website and tell the Beeb.

Interesting, very much a case of too many cooks methinks!

If BMR has been altered so much has BBMS all but become extinct and is the hourly sync relay at Leicester Square snake pit still giving a pulse on the hour?

Just when did NCC become NOC? It was of course always known as HQ Control before the NCC was created in the 1990s. Does the MICC have a new name too these days or is NOC the new acronym for NCC and MICC? Presumably TfL media have an interface there as well to ensure that major incidents are appropriately disseminated.

[Deleted]

centralsimon said:

Of course the very comprehensive list that has appeared in the traffic circular over the past few weeks was...er...missed....whilst you were reading the temp speed restrictions ;)

Point is that a four-digit number added into the article would have reassured people that they really did mean you could contact them if there's a problem - rather than putting the onus on everyone to go and try to find out the numbers themselves. To be honest, looking in the traffic circular for a phone number wouldn't always be my first instinct, and as referenced elsewhere it's hard to find out other autophone numbers. I've limited access to the intranet. It'd be a bit like putting out an article calling for phone donations to a charity and then expecting people to go themselves to hunt down the number, or advertising TfL's travel helpline without the number.