Queens Park - Euston DC

[Deleted]

Perhaps slightly OT, *begs forgiveness from Admins if so*

At some point in the future, the Bakerloo will be extended to WJ. AIUI, the Overground DC line will then be discontinued, including the QP - Euston section, leaving Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead without service.

Although currently DC, would it make sense to convert this section to OHLE? This would then allow making better use of the freed capacity of the Euston suburban platforms.

Perhaps it would allow the increase of the headways on the oft-crowded slow line from Bletchey/MK, and have some of the more frequent service stopping at Wembley, Queens Park and all stations to Euston. Obviously a crossover would be needed south of QP, from the up-slow to the up-DC and from the down-DC to the down-slow.

My calculations indicate that this would lengthen the journey time from WJ to Euston by 7 minutes (from 24 to 31 minutes), but would provide much better interchange facilities to the Bakerloo (at Wembley and Queens Park).

This would add a faster route from existing DC stations into Euston, and would provide the London Midland passengers with a quicker route to Paddington and Bakerloo.

Thoughts? Is it a completely ridiculous suggestion?

[Deleted]

bakerloo euston extention?
the south hampstead lines have always had the knife turned towards them as far as I am concerned re-open primrose hill BR it could take so much strain off camden tube station
it hasn't been used scince 30 october 1992!! especially south hampstead until 1997 BR tried to close it so many times so we could save the line having a special extra weekend service it would mean so much sense build extra platforms build a new station building.
it's called common sense take congestion away from an old small congested tube station taking all the strain from the market and ease it off a new practical station that hasn't been in use for 15 years re-open the abandoned tunnel spur and get a full system going rather than taking services away from the public.
**manager of london overground starts to listen to other peoples opinions**

[Deleted]

alantan said:

Perhaps slightly OT, *begs forgiveness from Admins if so*

At some point in the future, the Bakerloo will be extended to WJ. AIUI, the Overground DC line will then be discontinued, including the QP - Euston section, leaving Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead without service

The Queen's Park to South Hampstead will remain but be routed through Primrose Hill to link to the North Line line. Only Customers going to Euston will lose out. Everyone else will gain a new interchange.

[metman]

As far as I know, the plans from TfL are that the Bakerloo gets extended to Watford Jn, running every 10 minutes to Watford Jn. The existing DC serivces withdrawn and replaced by a Queens Park-Stratford service running every 15 minutes. I like this plan, but there will be spare capacity at Euston. I never got a chance to go to Primrose Hill. I tried to go once with my gran as a small child and was told it was closed.

As for the London Midland services, I'm no expert, but how often do Tring-Euston services run? Personally, if the DC service is canned, a Tring to Euston service could run every 30 mins calling Tring, Berko, Hemel, Apsley, King's Langley, Watford Junction, Bushey, Harrow & Wealdstone, Wembley Central, Queens Park (for trains to Statford/Elephant & Castle) and London Euston. An extra London Midland service would then run every 30 minutes calling at Euston, Harrow & Wealdstone, Watford Jn, Tring, and remaining stations to Northampton.

Not sure it would be viable to convert the Queens Park-Euston section to overhead.

[cetacean]

The big flaw I see is that the DC and Slow lines merge to two tracks for the last mile or so into Euston, so it seems to me trains might as well stay on the slow lines all the way.

The other problem is that trains will be stopping in the slow line platforms at Queen's Park. You'd be on to something if you could get them into the DC line platforms, but that would be very exspensive.

metman: Sometimes LO divert trains through Primrose Hill during engineering weekends (or at least Silverlink did) if you want to get close. They don't stop of course.

[Deleted]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I thought that the DC and slow lines split just outside the Euston platforms. Didn't realise about the track-sharing between DC and slow lines on the last mile into Euston. That constraint would explain why the frequency on both these lines is so low today.

I've seen the TfL proposal for QP to Stratford on alwaystouchout, but don't really get the need for it (except for finding somewhere to terminate an additional 4tph from the NLL). Surely more people are interested in getting from these 3 stations to Euston?

Anyway, I like metman's suggestion regarding London Midland, although in the peak I would imagine that it would be possible to increase the headways to 6 tph (3 tph for each of the two LM service patterns), although it might get cramped.

[Deleted]

yeah I have seen a few trains passing with passengers in they stop outside the supermarket car park for a surprisingly long time about ten minutes.

[metman]

Thanks alantan- well you're right, at Peak time its a free for all isn't it? I think it would be lovely to bring Primrose Hill back on the map. It would be a pain for Kilburn and Sth Hampstead passengers wanting to get to Euston-I guess they don't matter because they're not important!

[Deleted]

Kilburn and South Hampstead are both very lightly used stations, with 38 and 69 thousand passengers per year respectively.
Kilburn High Road is right near Klburn Park on the Bakerloo (3.2 million p/a), and South Hampstead next to Swiss Cottage on the Jubilee (5.83 million p/a).
Since there are stations on radial lines and have much better frequencies straight into central London, I think it is a good idea to divert this line into an orbital line. As an additional bonus, these stations could provide 'outerchanges' with the tube stations mentioned.

And of course, Camden Road / Town is an important destination that should be served better.

[mrjrt]

Just to jump in with an old suggestion of mine that a lot of you will have probably heard before elsewhere...rather than having a somewhat isolated interchange at QP, I think the ideal situation would be to move the Bakerloo portals to north of Willesden Junction, and obviously reinstating platforms on the various mainline lines thereabouts. That would give decent interchange opportunities (WJ would be served by all LO trains heading East (Stratford, the East London route, and the Goblin route), LO trains heading all places south (Richmond/Clapham Junction), the newly-segregated Bakerloo, and the slow mainlines. Making it the hub for the LO, I guess, as I think their depot is nearby, or if not the former Eurostar depot should be free

...and relatively little work in the grand scheme of things is required, compared to other projects on the go.

I see the loss of access to Euston as negligible, as they can simply head out to WJ for mainline trains to Euston, or indeed to Chalk Farm or Camden Town for tube access. Few people actually want to go to Euston itself, for most I'd imagine its simply the point where they switch to the tube for the rest of their journey.

[metman]

Are you saying-use the center platforms at Willesden Jn to turn round the stratford service? Thats not a bad idea.

[cetacean]

That's the plan anyway, since reversing the service at Queen's Park isn't thought very practical (and there's no obvious way to do with it cross-platform interchange in both directions). The Stratford-WJ and Bakerloo will have to share track for a short stretch.

[mrjrt]

The track sharing will of course impact Bakerloo capacity though, unless it operates some trains north of Willesden as a somewhat extended shuttle service, turning back at Willesden and running north again, hence why I think some tunnelling would be the better option. The Bakerloo needn't serve the couple of LO stations, just run beneath them, which could also save a few minutes into London I guess.

[amershamsi]

bakerloo capacity wouldn't be too affected by 4tph running from Stratford. It would affect it a little bit, but not much - frequency beyond Queens Park only need be 12tph.

The real question with all this is 'How many people use the DC line trains south of Harrow and would be massively hindered by not being able to get there without going via Paddington or doubling back?'

Personally, I'd have Willesden Junction-Watford Junction as part of Crossrail phase 2 (faster, bigger trains with slightly fewer stops, and direct to pretty much all the areas that are currently served) and rerouting the Bakerloo to either Ealing Broadway via North Acton (and making a new branch of the central line) or northwards in a new alignment or just ending it at Queens Park/Willesden Junction.

[metman]

No new tunnels will be built!

They would have to abandon one platform at Queens Park under current ideas I think?

[Deleted]

mrjrt said:

Just to jump in with an old suggestion of mine that a lot of you will have probably heard before elsewhere...rather than having a somewhat isolated interchange at QP, I think the ideal situation would be to move the Bakerloo portals to north of Willesden Junction, and obviously reinstating platforms on the various mainline lines thereabouts. That would give decent interchange opportunities (WJ would be served by all LO trains heading East (Stratford, the East London route, and the Goblin route), LO trains heading all places south (Richmond/Clapham Junction), the newly-segregated Bakerloo, and the slow mainlines. Making it the hub for the LO, I guess, as I think their depot is nearby, or if not the former Eurostar depot should be free

...and relatively little work in the grand scheme of things is required, compared to other projects on the go.

I see the loss of access to Euston as negligible, as they can simply head out to WJ for mainline trains to Euston, or indeed to Chalk Farm or Camden Town for tube access. Few people actually want to go to Euston itself, for most I'd imagine its simply the point where they switch to the tube for the rest of
their journey.

primrose hill BR is a good spot beacause it serves chalk farm, camden market is soon to become a disgusting glass shopping mall so camden can make blood money by higher rent it will be quite busy there are loads of unused stabling sidings that can be turned into a new station

[Deleted]

I do not know how good this map is, but according to it the service will still be running to Euston in 2025

[Deleted]

somersetchris said:

I do not know how good this map is, but according to it the service will still be running to Euston in 2025

It's not a very good map. The West London Tram, East London Transit and Greenwich Waterfront Transit have been either scrapped or are plans for uodated bus services now. Chelsea - Hackney would also take over the Central Line Epping Branch, not copy it, and the Bakerloo would take over the Overground services to Watford, not run along the same line either.

[cetacean]

It's been noted in the past that these maps (especially the previous 2016 one) seem to deliberately avoid removing existing services, even where the plans shown require it, which accounts for the Central Line to Epping and the Overground to Watford and Euston, and Thameslink to Moorgate, and so on. At least in this one they've removed Watford Met.

East London Transit and Greenwich Waterfront Transit have been planned as bus services for a long time now, and I think are still inching forward. The only conspicuous error is the West London Tram, which was scrapped since the map appeared (it's dated June 2007).

[Deleted]

delboy200 said:

primrose hill BR is a good spot beacause it serves chalk farm, camden market is soon to become a disgusting glass shopping mall so camden can make blood money by higher rent it will be quite busy there are loads of unused stabling sidings that can be turned into a new station

I thought Primrose Hill station was still there but just abandoned?

[metman]

That's what I thought. You can still see the canopy on the island platform (that was a few years back mind you!).

[Deleted]

The canopy and platform are both still there. As are the station buildings and lights. All with a very impressive display of buddleia. The next time I get stopped at the signal on the platform (I am a NR driver) I will see if I can see what has happened to the stairs.

The problem I think is access from street level. The last time I went past it the booking office and hall are now a photographers studio.

[miztert]

somersetchris said:

The canopy and platform are both still there. As are the station buildings and lights. All with a very impressive display of buddleia. The next time I get stopped at the signal on the platform (I am a NR driver) I will see if I can see what has happened to the stairs.

The problem I think is access from street level. The last time I went past it the booking office and hall are now a photographers studio.

The station building is almost certainly still in railway ownership, so just because it's in alternative use now doesn't mean it can't be resurrected as a station entrance in the future.

I found this 1986 photo of the station platforms via Wikipedia:
<http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/215079>