Rickmansworth Operator Change Over

[woody]

Can someone help answer a silly question that has been concerning me for a while?
When operators change over the train sits with the doors open while the new one comes out of the office, walks the length of the train and gets settled in the cab. In the summer, this is ok but in the winter it is uncomfortable with the wind and often rain & snow blowing through the train.
It doesn't look as if the operator is inspecting the train so why can't the operator leave the office when the train is 2-3 minutes away so that they arrive at the head of the platform at the same time as the train?
They would be out for the same time but the self loading freight would be spared the discomfort.
(Alternatively, the doors could be shut but I can see the problem with shut doors and no operator on board.)

[william]

This would make no difference as the train would still have to depart at the scheduled time and the doors closed prior to departure.

[c5]

The train may well be running early (yes it does happen every so often), the Train Operator may be running late or the job may have only just been given to a spare if the booked Operator has not turned up. Booking on time and walking time from the office to the cab is included in their duty times.

I'm not sure (but I should know really ) if the A Stock has the ability to close all bar one set of doors per car (like on the C Stock). If this can be done, in poor weather the Operator should do this, then reopen all doors again prior to departing. I will find out if the A Stock has this facilty and get back to you.

[Deleted]

woody said:

....why can't the operator leave the office when the train is 2-3 minutes away so that they arrive at the head of the platform at the same time as the train?

Because then that means the T/Op has to stand in the rain/cold/wind/hail/flotsam....

Us poor ops can't have cold hands or we cant hold down the deadman or press the door open buttons....

Edited to reflect our changing weather.... ;D

[Tubeboy]

I agree with you Woody, some T/ops take their time in getting to the cab. They get to the cab, and if the T/op [waiting to be relieved is still there] they start having a chin wag!

T/ops eh? Why cant they be professional like us station staff!

[tubeprune]

There used to be a rule which said that train crew had to be standing at the correct position to relieve one minute before the scheduled departure time. Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the observance of fools.

[prjb]

The current procedure dictates that a Train Operator should be in position to effect a relief 2 minutes before the train is due to arrive. This is not always possible due to various reasons including late running, short meal reliefs, lack of staff etc. All that aside though, drivers should be there when their train arrives.
'A' stock do not have a Selective Close facility like the 'C' stock, which means as far as the doors are concerned it is all open or all closed.

[DWS]

prjb said:

The current procedure dictates that a Train Operator should be in position to effect a relief 2 minutes before the train is due to arrive. This is not always possible due to various reasons including late running, short meal reliefs, lack of staff etc. All that aside though, drivers should be there when their train arrives.
'A' stock do not have a Selective Close facility like the 'C' stock, which means as far as the doors are concerned it is all open or all closed.

Will the S stock have Selective Close ?

At Barking on the eastbound its very cold with both sides of doors open in the winter when drivers changeover.

[prjb]

In broad terms yes. It is going to be a very different functionality to the basic system we have today, but as far as the customers are concerned in the middle of winter they are going to have selective close.

Thinking about it, I'm happy to talk about this more but it should probably head over to the SSR thread (Metropolitan) rather than hijack this one!

[Colin]

tubeboy said:

I agree with you Woody, some T/ops take their time in getting to the cab. They get to the cab, and if the T/op [waiting to be relieved is still there] they start having a chin wag!

T/ops eh? Why cant they be professional like us station staff!

That 'chin wag' can include possible defects, service information, how the train drives, etc!!

Also, the job of train op can be a lonely one - apart from seeing colleagues in the messroom, this will be the only time we get to talk to each other. It can be several weeks since you last saw that particular person. Station staff can natter away on the gateline or platforms - us train ops get 30 seconds at changeovers!!

Maybe we should just ignore each other and be sad and lonely ;D ;D

[Deleted]

colin said:

That 'chin wag' can include possible defects, service information, how the train drives, etc!!

I saw one of the DMTs at Earls Court embarrass himself in front of some senior managers recently. The train was being handed over and the drivers were talking. The DMT pompously pointed out to them that the signal was green, only to be firmly slapped down by the driver - she was explaining to her colleague about a defect on the train!

So yes, don't assume it's just idle chatter!

[citysig]

tubeoperator92 said:

Because then that means the T/Op has to stand in the snow....
Us poor ops can't have cold hands or we cant hold down the deadman or press the door open buttons....

And just how often does it snow these days? Your excuse book is out of date driver. Partly agree with you though. Its difficult to clear any signals until my slippers are on and my hands are wrapped around a nice warm cup of tea ;D

prjb said:

The current procedure dictates that a Train Operator should be in position to effect a relief 2 minutes before the train is due to arrive.

Many many years ago, I remember that day on the road I had with you. Yes I can clearly remember you demonstrating that to me. Honest

[prjb]

adw said:

colin said:

That 'chin wag' can include possible defects, service information, how the train drives, etc!!

I saw one of the DMTs at Earls Court embarrass himself in front of some senior managers recently. The train was being handed over and the drivers were talking. The DMT pompously pointed out to them that the signal was green, only to be firmly slapped down by the driver - she was explaining to her colleague about a defect on the train!

So yes, don't assume it's just idle chatter!

That is an extremely salient point.

[prjb]

citysig said:

prjb said:

The current procedure dictates that a Train Operator should be in position to effect a relief 2 minutes before the train is due to arrive.

Many many years ago, I remember that day on the road I had with you. Yes I can clearly remember you demonstrating that to me. Honest

Yes, well, ahem! Damn you and your memory!! ;D

[citysig]

prjb said:

Yes, well, ahem! Damn you and your memory!! ;D

Memory? What's that? All I remember is that one incident. Can't remember the kid's birthdays, the wife's name or my name for that matter, but for some reason, the flashing visions and bad dreams make me remember that ;D

[prjb]

Hey, at least we stayed on the rails! We did stay on the rails, didn't we? ;D

[mandgc]

Woody, who asked the original question, obviously hasn't had any experience operating trains.
There are many reasons, as we see, why there is sometimes a slight delay in changing-over. Did the train leave and arrive at his destination late, and so have a legitimate complaint? Longer delays can be caused by any number of technical reasons.

For a new poster I think he has posed a thoughtless question or is trying to stir things up.Get to know the forum before jumping in head first.

[Hutch]

I have to leap to the defence of Woody here and the question that he/she has raised. I have carefully reread his/her post again to make sure, and find that it is well put, polite – even self-depreciatory in its start. Moreover, it does not appear to refer to an occasional event but one that has been “concerning …” he/she “… for a while”.

Legitimate reasons have been given by those in the know for a delay in changing over, but importantly it has also been pointed out that in the normal course of operation (which should hopefully be most of the time) the relieving driver should be waiting at the head of the platform “..2 minutes before the train is due to arrive”.

I may not have operated 12 inch to the foot scale trains, but I have managed men, and have seen enough summers (and winters ) on this earth to know that standing on the end of an exposed platform is not the most desirable activity – unless you are a complete anorak!

If a genuine question raises a sensitivity, it prompts me to paraphrase my Shakespeare and suggest he protests too much, methinks.

[Colin]

mandgc said:

Woody, who asked the original question, obviously hasn't had any experience operating trains.

You answered your own post there - it's a pity you carried on typing.

mandgc said:

For a new poster I think he has posed a thoughtless question or is trying to stir things up.Get to know the forum before jumping in head first.

As someone who has been a member of this forum for some time, you ought to know better.

Woody, if you have any more questions, feel free to ask away

[Chris M]

As someone who also has no experience of operating trains, but who has been around the forum long enough to get to know it (a year), I didn't see anything wrong with the question at all. Woody's only experience of this situation comes from a passengers' POV, which doesn't give the whole story, so they asked the question. This is one of the main reasons this forum is here - to allow the travelling public to ask questions of LU staff so they can better understand the workings of the system and the reasons why things are done as they are.

Welcome to the forum Woody, please do ask any other questions you have - I learned something from your question.

Chris

[woody]

I am sorry to have stirred mandgc up - trust me, that wasn't the intent behind my question. I really did want to know why I have been sitting in the cold on numerous occasions in the past (and from the answers here in the future as well). I suppose I could have written to the company and asked the question but I wanted to know the real reason rather than the PR answer. I'm not sure that it has really been answered but I understand that fundamentally:
1 - the operator is supposed to be waiting for the train 2 minutes before its scheduled departure time and
2 - the train may not be running exactly to time
This means that by the rules, if the train arrives more than 2 minutes before schedule, it will wait in the station with the doors open and we will see the operator walking the platform during this time - I can understand that.
On the other hand, if it is running later than this the operator has to stand outside in the cold waiting - I can't understand that.
Overall it would seem to be better to have a system which flashes a light in the office/mess room when the train is a set distance away - it works underground (DMI) so it would be in all our interests to have it working above ground.
Would anyone who has had 'any experience operating trains' and having to stand out in the cold like me to raise this with management from a customer's point of view?
Sometimes, you know, listening to the customers can help everyone!

[agoodcuppa]

woody said:

Sometimes, you know, listening to the customers can help everyone!

From a technical point of view there's no reason why display can't be installed in the canteen/messroom and even in the DMT's office to advise that train X has passed point A.

Whether or not the will power is there is a different matter since there will be those who will say that the Operator knows what time the train is due and there's a clock in the messroom/canteen.

So I suspect that pasengers will continue to get cold.

[prjb]

Firstly woody your question is a valid one and also one that probably goes through most customers minds. It is infuriating to have to sit/stand waiting whilst the crews change over or wait to be relieved.

We do indeed have a system that advises drivers of where there trains are but this in itself isn't the answer. The 'trackernet' system is a mimic diagram that shows an observer where a train is on the line and what the number is etc. These screens are situated mainly for the use of Duty Managers but some locations do have them positioned where drivers can view them.

The problem is that some traincrew treat these systems as a means to stay in the messroom longer and attend the platform at the last minute rather than just being there 2 minutes before. Not all traincrew do this by any means but it does happen. On top of this the system can be out of date if service reformations have taken place recently, so drivers sit in the messroom thinking there train is at Kings Cross (as an example) where as it is actually in the platform awaiting them.

Before anyone starts to moan and wail about the fact that drivers should be in position 2 minutes before the scheduled time, it must be pointed out that generally when the trains are late the service is also disrupted in some way. This means that there are lots of angry customers just waiting to have a go at a member of uniformed staff. Our train crew at certain locations face regular abuse, both verbal and physical, whilst waiting in these circumstances and as such can be reluctant (understandably IMO) to attend the platform until their train has arrived.

As I have said previously there is also the issue of a lack of staff. The Duty Manager will sometimes hold trains in the platform while he/she wait for staff to become available (they may be about to book on, or on another train, or about to finish their meal relief). In the interests of fairness it must also be noted that Duty Managers are not immune from making mistakes and missing an uncovered duty that needed a spare allocated.

Finally, I have had experience operating trains and I am management. LU are working on some projects which should improve this situation. In the short term we are looking to improve our communications systems, and extend the coverage of trackernet. We are also looking at things at a line level to improve this such as providing cabins at pick up locations which are heated and can also act as a place of safety. Longer term we are looking to install decision support systems for Duty Managers to assist them in what is an extremely busy and stressful job. When I was a duty manager I worked with an ex-air traffic controller and he said that crew management was equal to that role for stress. We are also looking to have on train systems which interact with remote terminals as a means of improving information available to management and staff.

[Hutch]

Thanks prjb for a very candid reply.

[edited - will expand later]

[mandgc]

Well , I can consider myself well and truly slapped down !

I do not have any first hand knowledge of present day LUL operating.

I was a Guard on the suburban trains here in Melbourne (before OMO) and experienced delays in being relieved as well as causing some myself. ( On one occasion I was 'not in position' as I was strolling round the City looking at the Christmas windows, having mis-read my Roster and in this case and others I was not reported due , I like to think , to me being generally co-operative and flexible with the Guard's Clerk. I think the basic rule "Keep the trains running" is carried out by most staff though on all systems there are B - - Minded Staff whose only concern seems to be " Do as little as you can and get home as soon as possible"!

Passengers like to complain and often the person they complain to is as much in the dark as they are and sometimes as keen to get home as them.

If the LU Drivers on the board are satisfied with the posts then I will shut up !

[woody]

Thanks prjb, for a really comprehensive answer. It's good to know that the problem has been recognized and that something is being done about it. I would guess that that among all of the other things going on at present, it may not have a great priority but I'm sure that improvement will eventually come about.

I can well imagine how stressful the job can be at all levels when dealing with a sometimes aggressive public but I hope that it is recognised that the silent majority of us are usually happy with the way that the system works. Most of us understand that individual employees are not personally responsible for some of the problems that we experience and are doing their best.

[Phil]

woody said:

Most of us understand that........

Isn't that the whole problem as usual? Most do, but the threats (even physical nowadays) to staff by the remaining few mean that keeping a low profile can be essential. After all, it's no good (in the extreme) having a driver being assaulted while he's waiting for his train - NOBODY gets home then!!!

It's ALWAYS the few.....whether it's on the trains, at stations or even in the pub or on the streets.

[Deleted]

as a signaller covering rickmansworth i have traditionally tried my best to inform the dmt of late running or out of turn running and when those trains are about moor park so the operator can be on thier way. this helps t/ops have that little extra time whilst the train doesn't have to linger about any longer than neccessary.

[Deleted]

I also talk from a signal operator prospective. This point may have been covered, however most southbound trains have "stand time" at Rickmansworth, with some booked to wait in the platform for up to four minutes. We dont see what trains have crew releifs on, so i wouldnt know if these matched. So i would say, it isnt always the fact that the driver is late as to why you are going nowhere.

Also remember its downhill from Amersham!

[william]

metapprentice said:

Also remember its downhill from Amersham!

Good point MSO