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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 20:13:32 GMT
www.amersham.org.uk/forum/ipb/index.php?showtopic=195I'm surprised I didn't think of the questions in this thread myself!  The primary questions to be asked are: - what rolling stock will be used on the Chesham shuttle after the A stock is gone? - what kind of power supply reinforcement will be needed if electrification is retained? Personally I would not be surprised if TfL turns the service provision over to Chiltern, who could then refurbish another bubble car for off-peak services. Then again considering the fact that one of Chiltern's franchise commitments is a "major upgrade" of the Aylesbury line, I would not be surprised if they paid for a flying junction at Chalfont to remove the service gaps in the peak hours!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 20:55:09 GMT
Maybe they should make the Chesham Branch a heritage line using an A-stock?
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Nov 16, 2006 21:11:37 GMT
Somehow the St Albans branch from Watford seems to go on using both EMU and occasionally DMU trains, using what is effectively I gather dedicated stock.
I just do not see a "classic" DMU being able to cope with the demands. Neither do I see heritage A Stock working...we have the 6 or so mile Lymington branch from Brockenhurst, run as a heritage line with the dedicated 3-CIGs. However they have not always been a paragon of reliability, and on two occasions since March Class 450s have been used instead.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 21:15:50 GMT
How about a double-ended D stock unit?
Trouble is, any solution that involves an odd train or two with very few parts in common with S stock could cause problems with maintenance. Although we seem to manage with the sole remaining 1960 stock TRV, and the 1938 stock weedkiller until it fell apart.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 21:33:06 GMT
I'm surprised I didn't think of the questions in this thread myself! I am surprised that the trains will not be able to be split. If that is the case, and the Chesham Shuttle continues, the train will probably run into the Southbound platform at Chalfont and reverse there. Having said that, it would need a slight modification to the signalling there. |
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Post by Harsig on Nov 16, 2006 22:08:15 GMT
I'm surprised I didn't think of the questions in this thread myself! the train will probably run into the Southbound platform at Chalfont and reverse there. Having said that, it would need a slight modification to the signalling there. or a man standing by the points, clip & scotch in hand, as occurred on the occasion I traveled on a passenger train to Chesham from the southbound platform ;D |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Nov 16, 2006 22:16:10 GMT
I am trying to wrack my brain as to whether the D78 Metroliner tour of 21st September 1980 reversed in the SB and then ran from Amerhsam to Chalfont and thence to Chesham. I am pretty certain that this was the case. Solidbond may remember. mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/LUArchive/html/d78_metroliner_tour_5.htmlmysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/LUArchive/html/d78_metroliner_tour_5.htmlAfter Amersham I am sure that it was Chalfont SB, reverse (with the D Stock running in public service with the branch train in the bay) then onto the branch to Chesham, pick up the bemused Chesham passengers and instal them in one car, then ran back again into the SB at Chalfont . We then then headed via Rickmansworth and the North Curve to Croxley Tip and Watford. When was the last time that anything other than A60/62 Stock served Chesham? Perhaps indeed retain some D Stock for the shuttle or even tube stock as happened with the 1938 Stock on the ELL?  |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Nov 16, 2006 22:44:14 GMT
or even tube stock as happened with the 1938 Stock on the ELL? But by then, what will still be in service? Allegedly the 73ts was due to be gone by 2013 (though nothing has been mentioned recently), and that just leaves 72ts capable of running as 4 cars (or possibly 92ts, but that would be a waste). Even then, if that were to happen, would through trains to the city still be run in the peaks? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 22:51:19 GMT
But by then, what will still be in service? Allegedly the 73ts was due to be gone by 2013 (though nothing has been mentioned recently), and that just leaves 72ts capable of running as 4 cars (or possibly 92ts, but that would be a waste). Whats wrong with a 3 car 73ts? |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Nov 16, 2006 22:51:31 GMT
And Phil, Islandline will need some tube stock! The 38TS is getting very rusty!!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 22:57:38 GMT
And Phil, Islandline will need some tube stock! The 38TS is getting very rusty!!! I think the 73ts would go quirte nicely there too, as the double ended units are all fitted ready to go. |
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Post by Phil on Nov 16, 2006 23:38:44 GMT
Whats wrong with a 3 car 73ts? Nothing at all. But as I just posted above, the 73ts was supposed to be replaced by 2013 under the original terms of the PPP contract!! And Oracle's right: they'd go well on the Island line. |
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Post by Ben on Nov 17, 2006 7:41:01 GMT
districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=selfhelp&thread=1158379979&page=6(reply #78) Prjb mentioned this a while back...I just hope by now theyve come up with an answer! One idea might be to make all Amersham/Chesham services part of the 'Overground' network using the dual voltage stock (Eventually this could take over the entire Aylesbury via Harrow service). This would of course nessessitate a connection in the Finchley Road area between Met and NLL or the Croxley Link to enable stock transfers to happen. As much as enthusiasts would like it, the idea of keeping a tiny fleet on just for the shuttle seems uneconomical, whereas having a full 8car service run seems like overkill for the service, and might delay mainline opperations.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Nov 17, 2006 8:02:15 GMT
Or, perish the thought, someone up high might think out of the box and add 2x4 car units to the order (or 1x4 and 1x3 if train length is a problem) giving one service set and one spare: coupled together they could make a peak-hour through set if necessary. It's not too late I assume.
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Post by Oracle on Nov 17, 2006 8:15:40 GMT
Well said..go the 1973 Stock route and order some Double-enders for Chesham!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2006 15:49:02 GMT
Or, perish the thought, someone up high might think out of the box and add 2x4 car units to the order (or 1x4 and 1x3 if train length is a problem) giving one service set and one spare: coupled together they could make a peak-hour through set if necessary. The trouble with coupling short units together is that you would not have the full walk-through train like all the other S stocks. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2006 17:52:16 GMT
I suspect that double-ended D stock will probably make an appearance on the shuttle after the A stock is gone. The biggest advantage is that a 3-car D stock has much higher acceleration and a better power to weight ratio (2/3 to 1/2 for A stock). Using the D stocks would then allow the shuttle service to be slightly sped up, which may allow services to be improved.
The biggest hurdle is getting the Met drivers trained on it, but once sufficient drivers are available I'll bet the Ds would probably run all the way up until their withdrawal from the District, after which this quandary will have to be visited again.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2006 18:06:45 GMT
What is exactly the reason the new S stock can't be used? Is it platform length? Or other issues as well?
If it's just platform length it may well be cheaper to have it extended and run with 8car trains. It may be costly once and overkill every day but maintaining a separate stock and training drivers for it may be very expensive in the long run. Furthermore, even refurbished D-stock will be too old someday. Then LU would have have to have a very small amount of trains especially built for it. If that's ever the case, closing the branch will be cheaper...
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Post by william on Nov 17, 2006 18:23:06 GMT
What is exactly the reason the new S stock can't be used? Is it platform length? Or other issues as well? The main two issues are platform length at Chalfont and the economics of running an 8 car unit. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2006 18:27:59 GMT
What is exactly the reason the new S stock can't be used? Is it platform length? Or other issues as well? The main two issues are platform length at Chalfont and the economics of running an 8 car unit. I see. 8 car units is overkill and not cheap but separate stock is not cheap either... |
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Post by william on Nov 17, 2006 18:35:02 GMT
I see. 8 car units is overkill and not cheap but separate stock is not cheap either...[/quote] Absolutely, hence no decision has been made as to the future of the branch. |
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Post by prjb on Nov 17, 2006 21:26:38 GMT
I'm surprised I didn't think of the questions in this thread myself! I am surprised that the trains will not be able to be split. If that is the case, and the Chesham Shuttle continues, the train will probably run into the Southbound platform at Chalfont and reverse there. Having said that, it would need a slight modification to the signalling there. The trains can be split, but your then faced with an open gangway! |
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Post by prjb on Nov 17, 2006 21:32:19 GMT
No decision has been made on the Chesham shuttle, and as such no solution has been ruled out. Personally, I can't see 'heritage' stock being used as this will mean staff needing to know two stocks and the depot needing two sets of spares. Whilst you could argue this sort of resource for large sections, a two station shuttle doesn't qualify in my book. That said this is just a personal opinion and I have no bearing over this issue, as soon as I know - you will know!
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Post by william on Nov 17, 2006 21:33:19 GMT
I am surprised that the trains will not be able to be split. If that is the case, and the Chesham Shuttle continues, the train will probably run into the Southbound platform at Chalfont and reverse there. Having said that, it would need a slight modification to the signalling there. The trains can be split, but your then faced with an open gangway! ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2006 14:45:57 GMT
Nothing at all. But as I just posted above, the 73ts was supposed to be replaced by 2013 under the original terms of the PPP contract!! That means that in 2013 the piccadilly line will get new trains, that doesnt mean that 73ts will never ever see work anywhere else on or off the combine does it ? |
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Post by Phil on Nov 18, 2006 14:54:44 GMT
That means that in 2013 the piccadilly line will get new trains, that doesnt mean that 73ts will never ever see work anywhere else on or off the combine does it ? You tell me! I've got no direct access to any future plans. I was hoping you or one other of the LU staff would be able to answer that little uncertainty. |
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Post by Ben on Nov 18, 2006 17:38:30 GMT
Combine all of these things. Keep the 73 stock fleet; re-equip and reform into 3car units, and put it to work on ALL shuttles that LU have (chesham, MHE, possibly Grange Hill loop, possibly Olympia, possibly Watford north curve, and if it comes about Aldwych [and in my head Ongar too  ]) as well as leasing some to Island line for 38 stock replacement. That way there might just be enough demand to have another set of spares and make the whole thing ecconomically viable. |
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Post by prjb on Nov 18, 2006 21:47:04 GMT
That means that in 2013 the piccadilly line will get new trains, that doesnt mean that 73ts will never ever see work anywhere else on or off the combine does it ? You tell me! I've got no direct access to any future plans. I was hoping you or one other of the LU staff would be able to answer that little uncertainty. The Picc upgrade is due around 2016, so it is a little way off yet and won't help Chesham out before the 'S' roll out. |
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Post by Oracle on Nov 19, 2006 21:10:10 GMT
When was the last time that anything other than A60/62 Stock served Chesham? I gather that the strict answer is the RAT that carried passengers in service on the Chesham branch? This from another forum. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2006 21:14:16 GMT
How economically unfeasible would it be to build a pair of 4-car S stocks, formed DM-T-T-DM?
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]) as well as leasing some to Island line for 38 stock replacement. That way there might just be enough demand to have another set of spares and make the whole thing ecconomically viable.
