Circle train describers

[Deleted]

sweek said:

I think the words inner and outer aren't very clear though...

I agree, inner and outer isn’t very helpful. I suspect that most of the general public don’t know if trains run on the left or right either!

[Chris M]

I expect that most of the general public haven't thought about it, but would take a guess that they run on the left if asked. It will depend on which station they are most familiar with, if this is the Victoria Line at Warren Street for example they'd guess right, and if they live on a single-track branch it wont help at all.

[Deleted]

I have just looked up that Tokyo's circular Yamanote Line uses the terminology "outer circle" and "inner circle" for it's two directions. However, the signage also mentions which stations are accessible for each direction such as "bound for Shinjuku and Ikebukuro".

[Deleted]

The Beijing Loop line just says to (next station in respective direction). Seems to work fine.

[Deleted]

stephenk said:

I have just looked up that Tokyo's circular Yamanote Line uses the terminology "outer circle" and "inner circle" for it's two directions. However, the signage also mentions which stations are accessible for each direction such as "bound for Shinjuku and Ikebukuro".

Helped by the fact their new rolling stock also has auto-updating destination signange at the side of every car, which we'll (hopefully) see on the S-stock.

I very rarely get lost on the railways so I don't really know how the general cattle gets around.

[Deleted]

Not sure if it has been mentioned here somewhere, but every bit of track on LUL has an official designation.

The Circle line tracks are officially

from west of Gloucester Road via High Street to Aldgate - Outer Rail

from Aldgate to west of Gloucester Road via High Street - Inner Rail

From Gloucester Road - Tower Hill (and to Upminster) via Victoria - Eastbound

From (Upminster) Tower Hill - Gloucester Road - Westbound.

In terms of annoucements LUL prefer us to use "clockwise and anti clockwise" though that is fairly recent, though I tend to still use Inner and Outer (as well as anit or clock) ...but I always state a few relevant via points ..which i think it most informative.

The train destination boxes are too small to realistically accomodate anything other than Circle Line, drivers will not (in my experience) wind the thing to change via points every few stops. (some of them don't even do the rear box once per trip) S Stock dot matrix will I guess do that automatically.

I think showing Circle line is more important that showing, say just "ANTI CLOCKWISE" which may cause substantial confusion to passengers awaiting a District / Met or H&C train.

The colours is a nice idea, but trains are often turned, eg a Circle at Tower Hill inner rail, may be sent to Whitechapel to reverse back to the circle via Aldgate East north curve and in consequence is the other way around (not to mention Barking stablers etc). Districts and H&C trains reformed with Circles at Edgware Road. In fact some days almost every train arriving at Edgware Road changes it's identity (set number) and often it's line !

Other than the train fronts, the station dot matrix and platform signs that say "Circle Line" are either accompanied by via points or a diagram of 3/4 of the circle route next followed ..so i don't see why there should be confusion except by those not looking and any of the signs ..and no helping them !

[Deleted]

How about we put a nice big plastic sign on the window, say above the train number on the M door? That should be good enough.

[CSLR]

axewielder said:

How about we put a nice big plastic sign on the window, say above the train number on the M door? That should be good enough.

Why not use a nice enamel sign? In the days before we felt it was essential to convert everything to electronic control, these long-lasting, power saving devices performed admirably; and they seemed to indicate the destination of a train in a way that was far less confusing for everyone.
Oh yes - they were also good for wedging doors open.

[ed110220]

I was on the Yamanote Line in Tokyo frequently recently and as far as I noticed the platforms are simply described by giving the next two major stations rather than "clockwise/anti-clockwise" or "Northbound/Southbound" etc.

Eg the clockwise Yamanote platform at Shinagawa station is signed in English "For Shibuya and Shinjuku". Once the train reaches Shibuya it is announced "for Shinjuku and Ikebukuro", then "Ikebukuro and Ueno" etc.

I did notice "Outer Loop" and "Inner Loop" used for the Osaka Loop Line, but I didn't realise what it meant. I had assumed it meant there were two concentric circular lines, but I could only see one on the map. Perhaps it makes more sense in Japanese.

I agree that clockwise and anticlockwise are more logical. Even eastbound and westbound seem rather illogical for a circular line.

In Bath there is a circular bus route with the numbering 20A/20C. I must admit though that for years I didn't realise that it stood for anticlockwise and clockwise and assumed that there was once a 20B that had disappeared at some point!

The Yamanote Line trains also have an LCD screen above each set of doors displaying a diagram of the line, where the train is and the number of minutes to each station up to half way round the line from the current location (ie assuming no-one would go the longer 'wrong' way round to reach their destination). It also says which other lines you can change to at each station.

[max]

Almost got caught out myself the other day. Notting Hill to Blackfriars, and looked for Eastbound. Of course, technically both Circle directions at Notting Hill are Eastbound, but apparently at Notting Hill I needed to go west because apparently the District Line to Wimbledon goes west. I thought Wimbledon was south of Notting Hill.

Can't we just get rid of the Circle properly rather than trying to fix the signs, rebuild some platorms and run an Edgware Road to South Kensington shuttle. At my end (Liverpool Street) I'm sure that most people wouldn't mind changing at Aldgate East if they could be sure that there would be plenty of trains. Any time saved on the Circle is lost being parked at Aldgate anyway.

[Colin]

Nov 18, 2008 6:55:07 GMT max said:

Almost got caught out myself the other day. Notting Hill to Blackfriars, and looked for Eastbound. Of course, technically both Circle directions at Notting Hill are Eastbound, but apparently at Notting Hill I needed to go west because apparently the District Line to Wimbledon goes west. I thought Wimbledon was south of Notting Hill.

Wimbledon is geographically south of Notting Hill, but when talking about directions of a LU line, you must take the whole line in context (Circle line and Hainult section of the Central line excepted, of course). On the District line, Upminster is in the East; Ealing, Richmond and Wimbledon are in the West. On that basis, the District line as a whole is considered to run East/West.

Nov 18, 2008 6:55:07 GMT max said:

Can't we just get rid of the Circle properly

Nope!

Railway companies must have extremely water tight cases for withdrawing railway services - lack of use was deemed acceptable in the cases of Aldwych and Ongar.....somehow I don't think the same excuse will wash with regard to the Circle line.....

[max]

And how is a tourist at Notting Hill supposed to know this?

Piccadilly Line direction boards towards Cockfosters are contextual, in west London they tend to be Eastbound, in Central London they tend to be Northbound. The only District Line service at NHG is Southbound, and it's only part of the District Line by historical accident. So, why not make the signs at NHG contextual?

No legal restrictions whatsoever on withdrawing a through service as long as the journey can be completed by interchange. Look at the various Southern Railway and Great Eastern stubs for evidence of this. Through services come and go. For example, Bromley North has had through trains to London in times past, I don't think any through services run now. Other examples of variable through services? Sheerness, Maidstone (can't remember which one off hand) etc. etc.

If it really were the case that individual services were legally protected, the T-Cup would be in violation for withdrawing through services from Baker Street to Notting Hill.

EDIT: the only bit that might be covered legally is Aldgate to Tower Hill, but a 'significant hardship' argument would have to be proven even for this, and double the service from Liverpool Street to Aldgate East, along with MIP lifts, would probably mitigate against this. If not, there are ways around the problem, as the residents of Croxley Green will confirm.

[mrfs42]

Nov 18, 2008 6:55:07 GMT max said:

Any time saved on the Circle is lost being parked at Aldgate anyway.

Perhaps; Perhaps not.

Depending on the service density at the time of standing there is an element of recovery and pathing time at Aldgate.

Unsuprisingly, these times are weighted differently between the Outer and Inner Rails, due to the differing nature of the conflicts in the vincinity of Aldgate.

When ½ minute more can equal 50 more people = 10 seconds more on the dwell time = 40 seconds later entering the next station along = 60 more people to get on + those additional alighting. Every block of 10 seconds really does count on the Circle services, even though they are only timetabled to half-minute resolution. (The Central and the Drain are timetabled to quarter-minute resolution, and with the peak flows, especially in the City section of the Central, needed)

Waiting (and weighting) at Aldgate is not just a case of waiting for a path through, there is also a consideration of smoothing out headway blips and train bunching. After all, a 'good' timetable is designed to maximise resources without stressing the Regulators......

[max]

OK, lets try a little puzzle.

I'm at Liverpool Street and I want to get to Temple (I do this quite often). An H&C train has just opened its doors. Assuming I am still young and healthy enough to run up and down a flight of stairs, at what sized gap between the H&C train and the next Circle train is it worth taking a gamble and going to Aldgate East?

[mrfs42]

At a very rough guess, evened out for varying service densities, I'd suggest 8 - 8½ minutes.

Depends how much exercise you want, and the risk of cardiovascular failure through stress.

Why don't you use the Central to Bank? ;D

[max]

No heart problems in the family yet ...

I hate travelling on tube lines these days, especially during the summer and the rush hour. The surface lines are much more civilised and more useful than many people realise. Temple is a good station for Covent Garden, and it never gets busy.

Another example, Oxford Circus to Liverpool Street: Bus to Great Portland Street and then (hopefully) an empty Met train.

If my Liverpool Street train is put into the slow platforms at Stratford, I might nip out and pick up a surface line train at Mile End, otherwise I avoid the Central as much as possible

[amershamsi]

What would be one of the most useful things to do cheaply on the SSLs would be to rebuild Aldgate East as a large island platform, allowing easy changes from Liverpool Street to Tower Hill and vice versa.

When Whitechapel becomes one huge island, then it might be worth going that way if on an H&C.

[Deleted]

Nov 18, 2008 8:44:51 GMT max said:

No legal restrictions whatsoever on withdrawing a through service as long as the journey can be completed by interchange. Look at the various Southern Railway and Great Eastern stubs for evidence of this. Through services come and go. For example, Bromley North has had through trains to London in times past, I don't think any through services run now. Other examples of variable through services? Sheerness, Maidstone (can't remember which one off hand) etc. etc.

If it really were the case that individual services were legally protected, the T-Cup would be in violation for withdrawing through services from Baker Street to Notting Hill.

EDIT: the only bit that might be covered legally is Aldgate to Tower Hill, but a 'significant hardship' argument would have to be proven even for this, and double the service from Liverpool Street to Aldgate East, along with MIP lifts, would probably mitigate against this. If not, there are ways around the problem, as the residents of Croxley Green will confirm.

Yep, just run one train a day direct from Liverpool Street to Tower Hill at 6.10am. Then withdraw the train, remove the track immediately south of Aldgate and offer a taxi service at the same time if anyone requests it ;D
Legally that would be in compliance with the legislation, although I suspect there would be more vocal complaints than when the same happened at Croxley Green

[ed110220]

I don't see the problem with using clockwise and anticlockwise. It is far less ambiguous than using northbouth, southbound, eastbound or westbound for a circular route.

The M25 is described as clockwise or anticlockwise and it doesn't seem to cause confusion.

[Deleted]

Nov 18, 2008 19:44:03 GMT @ed110220 said:

The M25 is described as clockwise or anticlockwise and it doesn't seem to cause confusion.

Not on road signs, it's described North, South, East or West. Clockwise or anticlockwise would actually be better.

[amershamsi]

I don't know why clockwise or anti-clockwise would be better, seeing as people like me who have a good sense of where places are in the country would have to think what side of London I'm on, and then which compass direction clockwise and anti-clockwise would take me - I'd have to process some information, rather than just using it. Map users would have the same problem.

N, S, E and W have the bonus of having standard, easily understood, one letter abbreviations. Clkwise and Anti don't. Taking up more sign space.

Anyway, navigation on the M25 tends to be based on the 5 control points - Watford (M1) (is it now Luton?), Heathrow (M4), Gatwick (M23), Dartford Crossing and Stansted (M11) (old signs have Harlow), as well as more local destinations - eg the next junction's road and destination, and perhaps other major radials (A1, A2, M20, M26, A3, M3, A41) that are signed from a bit further away.

[Chris M]

Getting way off topic here, but the M25 signing suffers from too few control points.
On a journey from the M4 to the A24, do I go north to Watford or south to Heathrow T4 & T5 and Gatwick? I don't want to go anywhere near Watford or Gatwick, and surely I'm already at Heathrow so that could be in either direction. All the travel reports talk about the clockwise and anti-clockwise carriageways, so I've written "anti-clockwise" on my instructions.

There should be signs on the approach to the junction that say (over 4 signs)

M25 London Orbital
Clockwise / Northbound for:
M40, M1
A1 / A1(M)
M10, M11
A12, A127, A13

Anti-clockwise / Southbound for:
M3, A3
A24, M23/A23
A22, A21, M26
M20/A20, A2

M25 London Orbital
Clockwise / Northbound for:
The Midlands, The North, East Anglia
Watford
Hemel Hempstead
Luton
Potters Bar
Waltham Abbey
Harlow
Stansted Airport
Brentwood
Southend

M25 London Orbital
Anti-clockwise / Southbound for:
The South
Heathrow Airport Terminals 4, 5 & Cargo
Staines
Woking
Leatherhead
Epsom
Gatwick Airport
Sevenoaks
Dartford

[Ben]

Whether NSEW or clock/anti is better is a very subjective thing. However I respectfully disagree with AmershamSI's first paragraph; it really all depends on what youre used to and expect. And also for diagram/map users it would be just as easy to understand because the circle line is a loop.

The trouble stems from what people expect to see. Fact of the matter is that a lot of people know London by the tube map, not the geographical one, so surely it would make sense then to sign things by the direction the line takes (give or take a few exceptions) on the map?

Conversely...well, the obvious. London isnt a neat set of straight lines and 45 & 90 degree bends. People that know the geography will always bemoan the fact that actually things aren't that way in the real world.

Bottom line; we're all wrong!

[Ben]

On the subject of rebuilding Aldgate East, having recently read an artical about its reconstruction it would seem extremely difficult and expensive to reconstruct it to an island. For a start there are stanchions in the way, which would have to have their load dirverted.

From what I can make of it though, there might be space for an island interchange platform at the site of the old Aldgate East....

[21146]

But wasn't the station re-sited to the east to allow trains to be held on the north curve without fouling other lines? If it were moved back to the original location (however hypothetically this is), wouldn't this just recreate the problem? (Or maybe an incentive not to hold trains between Aldgate East and Liverpool Street WB?). On more realistic matters, will S7 formations on the H&C also have the same effect?

[amershamsi]

Nov 25, 2008 2:40:06 GMT Chris M said:

Getting way off topic here, but the M25 signing suffers from too few control points.
On a journey from the M4 to the A24, do I go north to Watford or south to Heathrow T4 & T5 and Gatwick? I don't want to go anywhere near Watford or Gatwick

err, the A24 passes near to Gatwick (about 9km away) and is parallel to the M23/A23. Bad example?

Clearly if you are coming at London about level with the middle (M4) and you want either S/SW London, or Surrey/Sussex these will all be South of where you are. You clearly don't want Watford or the M1, as that's to the north. Clockwise would tell me nothing - I'd have to work out what time I'm coming in at (9 o'clock) and what time I want to leave at (6.30) to realise I need anti-clockwise. We do carry a map of London, but clockwise and anti- are very rare on the motorway network (I think the M60 might have a couple of signs), the motorway network exclusively uses cardinal direction points, which can be abbreviated and understood easier.

You're big long list of destinations remind me of French signage that's hard to follow - you know the arrive at some junction between two small routes and there's ten destinations each way. You just can't take it in easily and get confused (especially when Paris is signed in both directions)

The hierarchy of destinations on the M25 does seem to work. The whole system of Super-control/regional (eg The NORTH), control, 'super local' and local destinations (so on the M40: London and Birmingham are super-control, Oxford and M25 are control, High Wycombe, Banbury and Leamington are super-local and places like Beaconsfield, Uxbridge, Stokenchurch, Bicester are local) was carefully thought out over 45 years ago, and then improved if improvements are needed as sign changes have taken place. The M25 doesn't have any super-control destinations, but has 5 control destinations, about 6 or 7 super-local ones and a local one for each junction. Signs on the M25 have a control, a super-local (if needed) and a local one at each junction, signs for the M25 (for each direction) have at least the control destination and one other, if not three. Control destinations often are signed 2 in advance, with the nearer one being treated like a super-local, super-locals and controls get treated like local destinations if near enough.

I agree with Benedict - it is about what we expect, and, as the whole rest of the network is signed as such, we are used to and expect (most of us, anyway) to be told NSEW on the M25. We also expect that the Circle line is a loop.

The circle line might be a little different - to be sure, it has other lines which help (west and east on the District and H&C) for all but the two bits shown N-S on the tube map (and Aldgate does well). Passengers aren't moving at 70mph and can take more than a minute to work out which way without having to commit, so giving every bit of information is allowed and employed. I agree with the point made above about direction on the tube map most of the time. The Edgware Road branch of the District should be N-S, not E-W. This also allows people to choose which scheme they want.

[mrfs42]

Conversely, on Monday night myself and AI were in a pub quiz with eight other people on the team; and each team member was the scribe for one round of questions.

There was some discussion about whether the writer should go 'clockwise' or 'anticlockwise'; a laudable distinction. Until you look through the circle and then the directions reverse.

We used the terms 'inner rail' and 'outer rail' to describe the movement of the quiz paper. Everyone understood.

[Chris M]

LU do use clockwise and anti-clockwise in some circumstances. For example the real-time travel mwp information currently says "CIRCLE LINE: Minor delays are occurring anti-clockwise due to a signal failure at Paddington. "