|
|
Post by johnb on May 21, 2007 10:32:25 GMT
I've recently moved to Whitechapel, near the station. Nice place; I'm liking it (although it's a little frustrating that my flat is less than ten metres from the eastbound platforms but a 5-minute walk that involves crossing over all the tracks, going through the barrier, walking down the High Street, crossing back over all the tracks again, and walking back parallel with the main entrance. Particularly when there's very clearly a former entrance that's now locked!).
I work at Embankment, so the service to and from work is dead easy (and obviously excellently driven by many of the fine gentlemen of this forum...). And as an ex-Victoria Line user, the fact that I can get a seat at 9AM is an amazing novelty.
However, sometimes I need to return to North London - wherein lies the problem. Theoretically, there is a perfectly adequate H&C line service out of Whitechapel. But the intervals are low enough compared to the District that in practice, for a journey like Whitechapel to Marylebone, it's often quicker to take the District and change onto the Bakerloo.
Worse still, Whitechapel has the traditional District Line trait of customer information boards so useless that they might as well not exist at all (why is the District so awful at this? It's not *that* much more complicated than the Northern, which usually manages to provide some approximation/estimate of future train times) - and westbound H&C trains leave from two different island platforms. So there's no real way of knowing how long the wait for the next H&C will be, or where to wait (Aldgate East is one solution to the second question, although it also doesn't have any information boards).
Aside from randomly ranting, I guess my question is - outside of Sundays and late nights, when all H&C trains terminate at Whitechapel, all use the platform furthest from the ticket office, and have a turnaround of about 5 minutes so you know roughly when the next one will leave - is there any way of working out where to go for the next H&C and/or how long it will be?
Also, are proper information boards planned for Whitechapel at some point (part of the SSL upgrade, I guess?)
John B
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2007 11:06:05 GMT
The Northern and SSLs use different methods of determining train location, destination, and route selection, thus the differences in the information systems. The SSLs will have improved information when the signalling is renewed sometime in the not too distant future.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2007 16:27:08 GMT
the northen line uses a system called PTI it can track any train on the whole line where as the district can only show trains on a section usually between about 4 stations
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2007 20:29:17 GMT
As a driver we have no more idea than you do which train will leave next ! Until one of us gets a green signal that is !
The signaller decides, usually based upon the timetable ! It is not unknown for a train to arrive at Whitechapel and be held whilst the following train overtakes it !
|
|
|
|
Post by c5 on May 21, 2007 21:47:29 GMT
And also if the H&C is running late or short of drivers they will be turned at Moorgate as the drivers dont have time to go to Whitechapel. The C&H controller has no choice.
It is not un-common to have gaps of over an hour east of Whitechapel and definatly between Plaistow and Barking - All on the H&C of course!!!!
My best bet is to get on the first train to Aldgate East or through towards the city and use another line.!
|
|
|
|
Post by abe on May 22, 2007 7:24:18 GMT
(Aldgate East is one solution to the second question, although it also doesn't have any information boards). Aldgate East has two of the 'light box' destination indicators on the WB platform, one at each end. These show all usual District line destinations, as well as the H&C trains. I've waited there often enough, hoping fervently for an H&C train and not another District...  |
|
|
|
Post by citysig on May 22, 2007 10:18:24 GMT
As a driver we have no more idea than you do which train will leave next ! Until one of us gets a green signal that is ! The signaller decides, usually based upon the timetable ! It is not unknown for a train to arrive at Whitechapel and be held whilst the following train overtakes it ! It should be noted that it is often said timetable, and any early / late running and overall service regulation that can mean this sort of thing happens. It's that good old big picture that I used to harp on about. You may think that to be held whilst a train overtakes you is a stupid and non-customer focused move. However, the bigger picture may reveal that whilst it may be so at that one location, the reasons further down the line make it a very good move indeed. As for customer information at all locations on the SSL, I have been involved in a small part of a project to upgrade the whole lot, and having had a small whiff of what's planned, it shouldn't be many more months before things start to get better. |
|
|
|
Post by johnb on May 22, 2007 11:22:12 GMT
@ Citysig - yay! Hope you're right...
@ Abe - me too. After about five minutes, you start contemplating the walk to Aldgate... usually the train arrives just after you lose all hope and head toward the barriers.
@ Aspect - that's what I thought to be honest, but wondered if there were any tricks.
@ AtEarlsCourt - I thought the signalling on the Northern Line was some of the most archaic on the network (with parts being bought off Ebay, etc)? Was the PTI system added later? How come it was never added to the SSL if so?
|
|
|
|
Post by citysig on May 23, 2007 8:59:52 GMT
Just to add of course, that the H&C (and Circle for that matter) are only timetabled to run at roughly 8 minute intervals. During relatively mild late running, it is very easy to see an interval of 10 minutes. The District run an average service of between 2 and 5 minutes through the Whitechapel area.
Therefore, if the service is described as "Good" then maybe hang on for just 3 more minutes (as you've waited 5 already) and an H&C should turn up.
There are no "tricks" as you put it. Despite what some members of the public and media will have you believe, we don't run the service as a game to catch people out. We run a hugely complex outfit using what we have available to us - and sometimes what we have is not always fit for the job.
|
|
|
|
Post by johnb on May 23, 2007 10:22:54 GMT
There are no "tricks" as you put it. Despite what some members of the public and media will have you believe, we don't run the service as a game to catch people out. We run a hugely complex outfit using what we have available to us - and sometimes what we have is not always fit for the job. Agreed - "tricks" in that sense wasn't really what I meant; just I wasn't sure whether the reason for lack of passenger info on the SSL was that the info doesn't exist at all (which you've confirmed is the case), or whether it was that the info does exist, but the investment hasn't yet been made in boards that can display it, but that there's a way (e.g. looking at the signal aspects) of working it out. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2007 21:57:13 GMT
Just take the first WB train to Aldgate East if there is no H&C train sitting at Whitechapel - only one platform at Aldgate East ;D and the describers worked properly the last time I went through there...
Edit: Corrected. I'll blame the *cough* academics.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2007 8:57:05 GMT
Another problem is the turnarounds at Whitechapel. Usually on a Saturday or late at night you get a flat 6 minutes. Observe the chaos if a reversing H&C driver calls a PNR at Whitechapel when it's 6mins. If they couldn't get the train behind into Aldgate bay in time then the job is well and truly knackered. During the day, 16 minute turnrounds are not uncommon and (although some drivers hate this and would prefer to go round the circle line  ) you have time to do all the things you'd like to do when changing ends, and even go outside to the shops! There are crude light-up indicators in the over-bridge corridor telling punters which platform the next WB H&C will go from - these are also evident on the ELL platforms. Every time I have been up there the info on these has been correct. Are they not working now or something? |
|
|
|
Post by johnb on May 25, 2007 14:16:10 GMT
AIUI, the overbridge indicators are only relevant on weekends and late evenings when *all* H&C trains are reversing at Whitechapel - at these times, H&C pax are directed to platforms 3/4 instead of platforms 1/2.
But during weekday daytimes, the overbridge indicater *always* points at platforms 1/2, even if the next train is actually a reverser in platform 4.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2007 14:57:10 GMT
pti was added to the wimbledon part of the district but since the introduction of the D stock it was de-commisioned but some equipment remains around the parson green area
pti is just a describer system nothing more nothing less
them gantry signs at whitechapel are controlled via the signalman by using a rocker switch up is plat 1&2 down is plat 3&4
|
|
|
|
Post by bluemole on Sept 28, 2007 17:51:36 GMT
As a driver we have no more idea than you do which train will leave next ! Until one of us gets a green signal that is ! The signaller decides, usually based upon the timetable ! It is not unknown for a train to arrive at Whitechapel and be held whilst the following train overtakes it ! Nothing changes!! (1952 to 1961 Motorman) |
|
|
|
Post by DrOne on Oct 23, 2007 15:58:06 GMT
As a regular user of Whitechapel I really hope the SSL improvements and the "Hammersmith & Circle" changes result in a tangible improvement. It can be frustrating waiting at Whitechapel for the H&C Actually, considering this (& the changes to the Met that are planned) would it be worth ending the Liverpool St-Whitechapel LU service for improved SSL reliability through Aldgate/Aldgate East once Crossrail is in place to mirror this route? |
|
|
|
Post by railtechnician on Oct 23, 2007 16:49:20 GMT
As a regular user of Whitechapel I really hope the SSL improvements and the "Hammersmith & Circle" changes result in a tangible improvement. It can be frustrating waiting at Whitechapel for the H&C Actually, considering this (& the changes to the Met that are planned) would it be worth ending the Liverpool St-Whitechapel LU service for improved SSL reliability through Aldgate/Aldgate East once Crossrail is in place to mirror this route? Oh has the CrossRail route altered to include Whitechapel then? It was not planned to be connected to Whitechapel LU station. Brian |
|
|
|
Post by johnb on Oct 23, 2007 17:02:13 GMT
It has been for several years at least, despite George Galloway's quixotic (read: near-certifiable) attempts to get it removed from the plan...
|
|
|
|
Post by railtechnician on Oct 23, 2007 17:20:23 GMT
It has been for several years at least, despite George Galloway's quixotic (read: near-certifiable) attempts to get it removed from the plan... I see but it was not planned when we did the station enabling works surveys at the beginning of the 1990s. At that time the most easterly LU station impacted by CrossRail was Liverpool Street. Brian |
|
|
|
Post by amershamsi on Nov 1, 2007 0:31:52 GMT
surely Stratford was on the route - it was since the 80s?
The early 90s would have been the route that just had Shenfield - Whitechapel was added when they both gave the momentum to build the scheme in the very late 90s/early 2000s, and the momentum to make the scheme just look the biggest waste of money ever in 2017 - the addition of the Docklands branch - genius, but also very very stupid (unless you made it the sole route east of Liverpool Street) as you end up with not enough trains in East London (which makes the far too many trains in West London look even more silly).
|
|
|
|
Post by railtechnician on Nov 1, 2007 5:18:57 GMT
surely Stratford was on the route - it was since the 80s? Stratford LU station was not impacted by CrossRail. Paddington, Tottenham Court Road and Liverpool St. were most heavily impacted followed by Moorgate. I not got to do the survey at Bond St. due to the project being shelved though I don't believe the impact was major although from memory it would've affected the substation. Farringdon and Barbican were less impacted by CrossRail although Farringdon was intended by 2010 to have been remodelled for CrossRail, Thameslink 2000 and another scheme that I can't recall. In the event when CrossRail was shelved I moved on to surveying Wembley Park for what was to be Wembley 2000! One day the government will get its act together, get a scheme off the ground, financed, running and completed on time and on budget but it probably won't be until hell freezes over! Brian |
|
) you have time to do all the things you'd like to do when changing ends, and even go outside to the shops!
