Operating practices between Acton and Northfields

[Deleted]

Why is it that the westbound local track is quite happily used for Northfields reversers (despite the need to cross to platform 1 and block the District trains), whereas the eastbound local appears to be used for nothing at all except testing trains?

Wouldn't it be easier in an operational sense to send trains coming off of Northfields onto the eastbound local and allow the Heathrow trains to run down the eastbound fast, or vice versa? Or would that involve too many crossings of the eastbound path and thus make the area fragile?

[Tomcakes]

I'd presume it would be so that Northfields reversers don't block the Heathrow service when tipping out? If the timetable's running OK surely they could slot into P1 between Districts?

[piccadillypilot]

tombeevers said:

I'd presume it would be so that Northfields reversers don't block the Heathrow service when tipping out?

Quite, it's been the practice since not long after Heathrow first opened.

If the timetable's running OK surely they could slot into P1 between Districts?

That's the theory, however, when things do go awry then there can be considerable knock on effects. It's not unknown for all four platforms to be occupied by Picc's with more waiting to enter and the disruption spreads to the District.

Until the layout was simplifed for programme machine working the layout permitted trains to move between local and fast roads as required.

A photo of the diagram from Acton Town cabin gives a flavour of the possibilities.

[Deleted]

Indeed PP.

One wizard idea would be to restore the second diverging route to WL32, the platform 2 fast (Picc) starter. This would allow Northfields reversers to run into platform 2, then cross to the westbound local in front of the District trains and proceed to Northfields that way. While this would still get in the way of District trains, it would allow said trains to wait in platform 1 instead of waiting at the inner home behind WL25's points.

[Tomcakes]

That would be a sensible idea, and not too costly - one would hope at least, but the figure of £3m for a new crossover from another thread still astounds me. Perhaps it would be an idea for the next time the area is resignalled (so presumably if it were bundled with other works it would be cheaper).

[Deleted]

If we're lucky, the necessary interlocking is already present in the West IMR at Acton and all that is needed is reinstament.

Cue Harsig with notes on the installation of programme machines at WL...

[q8]

Don't think you will be lucky TOK. AFAIR That intertlocking was removed at the time the programme machines were installed as were those points. (40's)

[Deleted]

q8 said:

Don't think you will be lucky TOK. AFAIR That intertlocking was removed at the time the programme machines were installed as were those points. (40's)

Argh.

Yet they retained three central reversing sidings east of Acton - sidings that appear to be used by little except engineering trains and the odd reverser.

It seems that some strange choices were made when WL was simplified.

[Deleted]

theonekea said:

Yet they retained three central reversing sidings east of Acton - sidings that appear to be used by little except engineering trains and the odd reverser.

It seems that some strange choices were made when WL was simplified.

In actual fact, the east sidings at Acton are used very regularly throughout the day (timetabled reversers in the early am, late pm and when the service goes belly-up which it often does on the Picc!)

[Deleted]

alanl said:

theonekea said:

Yet they retained three central reversing sidings east of Acton - sidings that appear to be used by little except engineering trains and the odd reverser.

It seems that some strange choices were made when WL was simplified.

In actual fact, the east sidings at Acton are used very regularly throughout the day (timetabled reversers in the early am, late pm and when the service goes belly-up which it often does on the Picc!)

Really? I've only ever seen a single train in the sidings on a good day, and even on a bad day I don't think I've seen all three sidings full.

[q8]

You don't get out of bed early enough.

[Colin]

theonekea said:

Really? I've only ever seen a single train in the sidings on a good day, and even on a bad day I don't think I've seen all three sidings full.

You're not a train spotter then? ;D ;D

Next time you hear that the Picc has problems, and to change at Acton Town for the Rayners Lane branch - Get yourself down there, cos it'll be a fair bet those sidings are being well used

[Deleted]

colin said:

Next time you hear that the Picc has problems, and to change at Acton Town for the Rayners Lane branch - Get yourself down there, cos it'll be a fair bet those sidings are being well used

Blocking back into the sidings ?

At about 2100, there are two trains in the sidings, which are both Rusty Rail moves. One of them is Train 354...

[Oracle]

Time was that the EB local at Northfields was used after peaks M-F. This then enabled the Brake Block Test locomotive, i.e. Sarah, to run up and down from South Ealing to the spray area, and finally to Acton Town at end of session. I once cabbed the lovely loco with the Test Team when they had finished for the day which would be around 1979/80? The WB local was used ad hoc I seem to recall but it was very handy when in the evening there were a series of Northfields reversers and those 'stations to Heathrow' passengers refused to detrain...the Thin Controller would send a Heathrow down the local to take the heat and by-pass the blockage. Are the airport passengers the most vociferous at being detrained/detained on LUL? Or is the City types on the Met?

[robots]

There is at least one train scheduled to run via the Eastbound local between

Northfields and Acton Town Mon - Fri namely #316 2104 ex Heathrow. This is to allow

T/OPS to keep their route knowledge over the section. This is an Arnos duty so I

assume that there must be a second one for Acton T/ops.

[Oracle]

Before the closure of T4 there used to be two trains M-S and I think one on Sunday last thing that ran direct to T123. Was this for rusty rail (unlikely), T/ops route knowledge or because T4 had to close? Will it be resuscitated when T4 re-opens?

Incidentally I wrote at length about the T4 extension for UNDERGROUND NUDES, sorry NEWS, when all the legals and then construction was going through under the then GLC. It may interest to know that originally there was to be a station box in the terminal building but there was so much delay in getting the authorities etc. sorted that the box was deleted. The next best thing was locating the station under the car park. This in turn necessitated a separate new short Act of Parliament to permit a deviation railway from the original.

Off topic again my pal David Bird worked for French's the contractors who built the line to Hatton X. I asked him why the Picc had to go up and over the River Crane? Well he said, they had a problem with deeper river mud than was originally envisaged. Trial pilings ran into a slight problem .... they disappeared! Ooops! No way to go under the mud so we'll have to go over the top!

[Deleted]

oracle said:

Before the closure of T4 there used to be two trains M-S and I think one on Sunday last thing that ran direct to T123. Was this for rusty rail (unlikely), T/ops route knowledge or because T4 had to close? Will it be resuscitated when T4 re-opens?

It was for T/OP route knowledge and all that will be reintroduced when T4 loop reopens and the associated new WTT for that. It should be exactly as it was before the T4 loop was shut.

Also interesting to hear about Cranebank. I always wondered why the tube suddenly popped back onto the surface only to drop back down again...and its a stretch of track where you're parallel to the A4, so you're observing which is faster...the tube train or the traffic on the A4!

[agoodcuppa]

soultrain said:

Also interesting to hear about Cranebank. I always wondered why the tube suddenly popped back onto the surface only to drop back down again...and its a stretch of track where you're parallel to the A4, so you're observing which is faster...the tube train or the traffic on the A4!

The railway is only just below the surface, it was built "cut and cover" so going under the river would have added significantly to the cost.

BTW, it's the A30, the Great South West Road. The A4 is the Bath Road and is the right fork at Henley's Corner and goes along the north side of the airport.

[Deleted]

agoodcuppa said:

BTW, it's the A30, the Great South West Road. The A4 is the Bath Road and is the right fork at Henley's Corner and goes along the north side of the airport.

You are right...thats why I use the tube to get to the airport otherwise I'd get lost!

[Oracle]

Henley's Corner

Now read BP Garage corner and instead of Traveler's Friend pub, read McDonald's!

As a bit of added interest:

a) where the dummy brick building is on the corner of Legrace Avenue [Lancaster Place is it?] with the air vent (the tall reddish brick building with no windows and a grid at the top that matches houses' roofs)
look here
there used to be a vacant lot possibly an old bomb site. When we were kids we used to play on it but now it's totally unrecognizable where there was a vacant lot!

b) when French's were building the cut-and-cover under the service road in Bath Road they sank a large square shaft lined with steel. The building site was surrounded by wooden sheet fencing, although there was an opening with a large door that was always left open.

One evening X [not me!!!] had had a few drinks of homemade wine at the charity tasting one evening and was asked to take Mrs Oldlady home. He had not planned to drive the saloon car that was owned at the time. However no-one else could get her home. She lived in the service road in Bath Road it seems and X drove off and then short-cutted along the service road from Manor Avenue westbound from the shops rather than go along Bath Road and then left into Basildene Road then immediately left a few feet. You can guess what happened next! Bump! Bang! Thump! "What the heck was that?!". Brakes suddenly and then realizes he is a foot or two from the sheer drop into the hole! Reverses back a bit and then does a 100-point turn and then Thump! Bang! Bump! drives over the dirt and gravel out of the worksite and onto the truncated service road. He was nearly the first to drive ONTO the new Piccadilly Line!

c) At Cranebank the River Crane was estimated at having a 6-feet deep river bed but it turned out to be much deeper. I am sure that the costs were indeed much less to bridge the river rather than have some form of aqueduct over the railway but I gather that the mud and soft ground were so deep after trial pilings were sunk that it would have been a major engineering task at the time. No doubt with today's technology things would be different? It did of course allow a ventilation facility and for Picc drivers to take a breath of fresh air before plunging into the Stygian depths again!

d) I am not sure if this is the right forum to mention it but here goes! Virtually as soon as the GLC's department had got the T4 link under way, despite the aforementioned delay, the talk turned yet again to the perennial chestnut of where the next Terminal was going to be that the Airport needed...T5 and the only place was what was then Perry Bar Sewage Works. The Thames Water? sewage farm had been there a considerable time and it was agreed generally that T5 had to go there but where was the 'farm' going to go? At the same time there was as you know talk of yet again laying a SR link from the Windsor lines just a short distance south of Feltham station via a tunnel to T123, and then T4 or via T4. There was even talk of a monorail! That came to naught but something similar is now mooted it seems. However, basically as soon as T4 and its station were under way, the discussions began as to where T5 was going to fit into the new T4 loop and when I left the developing saga brewing to go to College I thought that it seemed as though the T4 station and loop were going to be an anachronism as soon as they opened. However Hywel Williams mentions on his pages that there was in fact an attempt to site a possible T5 station...which I knew nothing about....but in the end after a huge inquiry at which my Mum attended for weeks on end as a Secretary, the T5 building was placed where it is now and the LUL station has had to be built anew.
underground-history.co.uk/heathrow.php
It is a great shame that the former GWR Staines West branch, now Colnbrook branch, was truncated and wiped out by the M25 works as if a bit of forethought had been put in the line could have passed under the M25 and then be used to transport materials directly to the T5 site rather than be offloaded at Colnbrook which was in fact a condition of the planning permission in the end.
www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/Staines_West_line.html

[agoodcuppa]

oracle said:

instead of Traveler's Friend pub, read McDonald's!

Sit's back in shock and horror, it having been quite a while since I went past.

forethought had been put in the line could have passed under the M25 and then be used to transport

"Forethought" and "transport" in the same sentence? An oxymoron surely?