No wonder Picc passengers get SO annoyed!

[Oracle]

And Wood Green reversing went in...1979?

Although Heathrow will always win, as has been said, I can recall when Northfields terminators caused very disgruntled passengers. On one occasion in a late evening (previously mentioned) the train stopped at Northfields WB Fast and the passengers refused to get off. The train was busy, and there may have been service disruption as well. I seem to recall that there was, so there was a paucity of through trains. Despite overtures and worse from platform staff, there was a sit-in or stand-in (the train was busy). This of course resulted in trains stacking up behind. Now, I know on one previous occasion to that, passenger persuasion had resulted in a crew getting on and the train went forward after all. Perhaps everyone thought that they could use mass people power this time? The situation was only resolved when the controller sent a Heathrow down the WB Local from Acton, by-passing the stuck trains, and then everyone did a cross-platform. I have to say that a lot of the passengers looked as though they were foreigners; did they have a different attitude? No-one seemed to believe the staff that yes, there was a Heathrow train behind but it was stuck in the queue that had been caused. Also, it was clear I thought at the time that despite it being a Northfields-described train previously, passengers thought that it might somehow magically transmute into a Heathrow train when it actually got to Northfields?

[Oracle]

A train ex-South Ealing and a train Ex-Ealing Common or Ealing Depot; A train ex Acton west siding and one from either Ealing Common OR South Ealing OR Ealing Depot; or TWO ex South Ealing. can approach Acton e/b at the same time provided one is being routed in the local and one in the fast.

That was always the case but was there not a #-over from the EB Local ex-South Ealing to the EB Fast west of Acton once, but was removed [or was it the other way round?]? Am I correct that there is no EB Fast to EB Local #-over east of the station, only Local - Fast?

[ruislip]

tubeprune said:

Barons Court Reversers:

Just for the record, the off-peak service pattern in the time of the Barons Court reversers was that one group of trains did Cockfosters-Rayners Lane-Cockfosters every 10 minutes while the other did Arnos Grove-Hounslow-Wood Green-Barons Court-Arnos Grove every 10 minutes giving a central area frequency of 3 trains per 10 minutes. Barons Court reversers ceased in July 1975.
I always thought one group of trains did Rayners-Cockfosters and back, a second group did Hounslow-Arnos and back, and a thrid group did Barons Ct-Wood Green and back. What was the peak pattern? Were there any Barons Ct or Northfields reversers in addition to those reversing at Hounslow, Rayners, and Uxbridge? Did all Uxbridge branch trains go as far as Cockfosters; with all Hounslow branch trains alternating between Arnos and Wood Green?

It is worth noting that the Picc peak used to have 32 trains per hour in 1968 with 38/59TS but now they can only manage 24, which is a 25% reduction. The 73TS capacity is about 10% less than 38/59TS and the running time has increased by 10%. In effect, the capacity of the line is now 65% of what it was but the passenger numbers are up by 30%.

Was there a 50-50 split between the two western branches as there is nowadays?

[tubeprune]

Barons Court Reversers:

They had to do Arnos Grove-Hounslow-Wood Green-Barons Court-Arnos Grove otherwise the only depot which could cover the Barons Court duties was Wood Green unless other crews travelled on the cushions for pick ups. Also, a train stuck on Barons Ct-Wood Greens would only get to a depot by going out of turn.

Were there any Barons Ct or Northfields reversers in addition to those reversing at Hounslow, Rayners, and Uxbridge? Did all Uxbridge branch trains go as far as Cockfosters; with all Hounslow branch trains alternating between Arnos and Wood Green?

The peaks were different in that trains reversed at Wood Green every 10 minutes, Arnos and Cock in other slots so the origin was not always a constant. Generally, Uxb/RL trains went through to Oakwood (stable) or Cock. There were no Barons Court reversers in the peaks. Northfields trains were usually stablers.

I think reversing at Wood Green was abandoned in 1990.

Was there a 50-50 split between the two western branches as there is nowadays?

Generally, yes.

[mandgc]

Reversing at Acton Town (see reply #22)

Isn't the reversing siding between the WB and EB Heathrow fast lines for this purpose ?

[Colin]

Indeed.

26 siding is to the west of Acton Town - I was going to mention it, but I wasn't sure if it was around at the time the question referred to.

[mandgc]

Acton Town 26 (middle) siding.

I think this siding was put in when four tracks were extended to Northfields in 1932.

[Deleted]

If only they made the loop bigger instead of adding another branch for the Picc. Maybe the new batch of trains will solve quite a few of the problems? Having lived near Uxbridge, I can't say that the Piccadilly is much used from there to Acton.

[Oracle]

Don't get me on that subject! The problem of how to cater for T5 was discussed at length at about the time that the T4 loop was finally getting somewhere with its construction. The Perry Oaks sludge works that had predated the building of Heathrow was a favourite spot for the building of a new terminal over seversal decades but because it had to be moved meant that easier options won the day.

I remember writing in Undergound News about the prospects for an extension to T5 in the early Eighties, and the sewage works was the only viable site, but the T4 loop had been set in stone by then. Even so the loop did divert from its original path, and a revising Act had to be passed to authorise the deviation. As is well known because of delays the station box reserved for the T4 station had to be deleted by BAA in favour of a station in the adjacent car park. Although it would have been, with hindsight, brilliant foreplanning to extend the loop to incorporate a T5 station, there was at the time no certainty about the location of the terminal and whether it would ever be built.

[Chris M]

oracle said:

Although it would have been, with hindsight, brilliant foreplanning to extend the loop to incorporate a T5 station, there was at the time no certainty about the location of the terminal and whether it would ever be built.

Isn't there a part of the T4 loop that was constructed in such a way as to make it easy to add a station there for T5?

[Deleted]

Aye, some sort of enlarged cavern was deliberately built to allow for a future station. I do not know it this is the one which was actually used to build T5.

[Deleted]

As far as what Ive read (cant remember where) they constructed a section of the loop as a straight section where they thought T5 was going to be built. Turned out its now half a mile away and useless, hence the new build. Shame as they atleast tried to make it work on the loop!

[Deleted]

Shame there couldn't be a giant loop from somewhere near Uxbridge, down by the M25 to T5, and leading into what I still think of as the Hounslow branch. Or... could there.....?? (cue X-Files theme...)

[Deleted]

The only problem with the T5 extension is that PiccEx Junction is facing the wrong way!!

The current layout, which prevents a train departing T4 from traveling directly to T5, is a criminally braindead configuration which will starve T5 of trains in peak hours - I seriously doubt that it will be possible to serve both T4 and T5 adequately without pushing ungodly huge numbers of trains down the Heathrow branch, something that almost happens right now!

Even if a high enough frequency was attained, such that T4 and T5 were both served with the number of trains needed to maintain even loadings, where will they go in the central trunk? I can see a LOT of peak-hour short trips at Acton, with pax expected to stuff themselves into through services or switch to the District.

[Deleted]

I thought plan was 1 out of every three trains to T4, rest to T5 and let Heatrow Connect take them from T1,2,3 to T4? Or is that wrong?

[Oracle]

underground-history.co.uk/heathrow.php shows you where the flat part was placed as a speculation for T5.

However, having studied papers at length when the T4 was being authorised and then built, and T5 mooted, I can say that all the recent comments are apt and noted. I am pretty certain that I read that Heathrow Express is intended to take passengers from T4, as I don't think Connect is running to 5? I can imagine a bus service would run as well inter-terminal, as they seem to use these a lot these days. The big problem with T5 is that it took so long to be authorised and because of the huge and expensive public enquiry, was not set in stone as to its location.

One ongoing suggestion is that a loop would run from Feltham to T4 etc. and this was first suggested in the 1960s. It was at one stage preferred in fact to the lengthier tube journey.

[Deleted]

mackenzieblu said:

I thought plan was 1 out of every three trains to T4, rest to T5 and let Heatrow Connect take them from T1,2,3 to T4? Or is that wrong?

It is correct to say that the majority of Picc trains will go to T5, not sure about the Connect thing.

As an aside our I/O's have just started their training down at T5. Eight months now and counting!.

[Deleted]

And once it opens it means I travelled the whole of the Pic. Tho from what Ive seen it looks a kewl station!

BTW what do you guys think of having LUL trainned BAA staff runiing the station?

[c5]

I doubt the BAA staff will be trained like our station staff. I do know that there will be a LUL Station Supervisor and possibly a SA, plus I think some Tube Lies staff. BAA as you say will be the Station Facility Owner (SFO). There are a number of stations already where LUL are not the SFO, and BAA have been a TOC fairly okay I believe for a few years now.

[Deleted]

mackenzieblu said:

BTW what do you guys think of having LUL trainned BAA staff runiing the station?

No comment!! ;D

DOC

[Deleted]

doclivcm said:

mackenzieblu said:

BTW what do you guys think of having LUL trainned BAA staff runiing the station?

No comment!! ;D

DOC

They have quite a lot of experience already as per Heathrow Express. In fact one might ask what makes LUL training superior to other TOCs. There will be a LUL supervisor on site to ensure the reference manual is adhered to.
If you are LUL (or Tubelines) staff and fancy a run down to T5 drop me a pm and I'll try to arrange it for you. It will have to be after June 30th which is when we roll over from Engineering Hours to Traffic Hours. Traffic hours trains depart Northfields depot approx 0945. Can't promise everyone a trip but some of you will get a ride.
Oh, we are, or were, contracted to supply an 18 tph to H123. The trains to T5 will be every ten minutes. We will be running empty trains down from a couple of months ago until March 27th next year when we will carry the first customers. Between January 13th and March 27th we will be carrying airport staff on request and with a pass that permits them to travel...plus a ticket!