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Post by happybunny on Jul 4, 2007 15:35:22 GMT
So, was waiting at Acton W/B today... 5 Heathrow's and 2 Northfield's pass by.. then finally a Rayners arrives. I really hate this line! It is so frustrating.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jul 4, 2007 15:39:28 GMT
Isn't it something to do with LU being paid to keep a service running to Heathrow, and screw Uxbridge?
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Post by Tubeboy on Jul 4, 2007 15:49:16 GMT
Tis annoying yes. Just like letting three Charing Cross trains go, wait for a Bank, which then [as it approaches Camden] gets diverted via the Cross. Heathrow does get more bums on seats though. What are the intervals peak and off peak? [Uxbridge branch] Sunday evenings are every 15-20 minutes I believe.
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Post by happybunny on Jul 4, 2007 17:21:16 GMT
Heathrow does get more bums on seats though. What are the intervals peak and off peak? [Uxbridge branch] Sunday evenings are every 15-20 minutes I believe. Yeah it may be more busy... but figure this, right after a Heathrow train left they brought a train out of Acton West sidings (the 3rd Heathrow I think) of course nobody got on at Acton because a Heathrow had just left, and the platform was packed of people getting more and more mad waiting for a Rayners Lane train! Explain that In regard to service.. I believe there is 6 tph for Uxbridge service (though the slight sniff of trouble or a gap on Heathrow line and they think nothing of diverting the next Rayners train, leaving a 20 minute gap- this is indeed very normal on the Picc.. someone once told me there is usually about 1 Rayners/Uxb train an hour cancelled/diverted) and 18tph for Heathrow Branch (I think 3-4 of these are Northfields reversers)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2007 18:02:50 GMT
The reason there are so many Heathrow trains is because the platform takes 5 times longer to be filled up with passengers going to Rayners, compared to passengers for Heathrow. The majority of people from central London are heading for the Heathrow branch as well. So the first two trains for Heathrow are packed. There's been a gap between stopping at stations somewhere in the pipe, so by the time they reach Acton, you can barely get in. The next one is almost usually a Northfields one, making the people who couldn't get on the first two trains wait longer, as well as those having to change for a Heathrow train adding to the crowd. The next one is a Heathrow train, but there again it is packed. So there are still a very large number of people waiting for a Heathrow train on the platform. So after 4 trains have gone past without hardly anyone actually getting on, one finally has some space to let people on. But then the next one is a Rayners one, leaving the crowd that didn't get on the last train still waiting, plus another train is coming to add to it... Its a vicious circle on the Picc in peak hours unfortunately. Because of the delays when going through the pipe, trains are bunched up into little groups, so some get crowded very quickly, others are near empty. It can't be helped sadly. If one idiot wants to put their foot in the door, the 10 seconds they do it for messes up the whole system, and Rayners suffers because Heathrow is more important.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2007 19:59:15 GMT
Am I right in saying that BAA pays for xx number of trains per hour to serve Heathrow? Or am I confusing it with the service from Padd through Hayes & Hart?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 0:51:39 GMT
This is why rumours keep getting started about the transfer of the Uxbridge branch to the District Line, despite the fact that services to Richmond and Wimbledon would initially suffer due to lack of signalling capacity between Earls Court West Junction and Whitechapel. If/when Earl's Court has the two missing crossovers restored, and the south Circle is resignalled to allow a higher theoretical capacity, all three branches will undoubtedly get much better service.
prjb would probably know what any cutoff date would be for making a decision; the date in question would probably be the last possible moment to expand the existing S stock order for the additional trains needed to serve Uxbridge via Acton.
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Post by ruislip on Jul 5, 2007 2:32:24 GMT
What are the intervals peak and off peak? [Uxbridge branch] Sunday evenings are every 15-20 minutes I believe. IIRC the main Picc has 24 TPH off-peak and 28 peak. Off-peak there is a train every 10 minutes to/from Rayners Lane, with every other of these trains being to/from Uxbridge. In the peaks, the Heathrow and Uxbridge branches get alternating trains--with the latter alternating between Rayners, Ruislip, and Uxbridge as the final destination.
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Post by Colin on Jul 5, 2007 3:11:26 GMT
The Picc was reduced to 24 tph at all times a few years back as 28 tph just doesn't work. I believe it may have recently been increased to 26 tph, but in practice the 2 extra's are often cancelled.
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Post by mandgc on Jul 5, 2007 6:18:25 GMT
District to Rayners Lane.
The District appears to be the most complicated line for Timetabling ,etc. At Ealing Bway it has space and time to sort itself out before heading back towards Upminster. Could all this be handled at Ray.Lane with one reversing siding and the extra travelling time neccesary ?
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Post by Oracle on Jul 5, 2007 6:48:38 GMT
Picc trains have run deliberately to Ealing Broadway before, e.g. as non-stop Arsenal charter trains, and also on diversion because of signal failure north of Hanger Lane Junction. District trains running to South Harrow and Rayners Lane have to slow down under certain bridges because of tight clearances. The p/way would have to be lowered presumably for a full service to be run.
I wonder how many members remember the old Wood Green reversers? I think the last were in '79, and ran "shorts" to Barons Court. In those days Uxbridge was only really served M-F in the peaks. Can't remember if Acton Town was also a regular reversing point, although Northfields was, and of course Rayners Lane off-peaks. All I wanted in those days was to get back to Hounslow West and could not give a toss about the Rayners branch.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 6:59:06 GMT
IIRC the main Picc has 24 TPH off-peak and 28 peak. Off-peak there is a train every 10 minutes to/from Rayners Lane, with every other of these trains being to/from Uxbridge. In the peaks, the Heathrow and Uxbridge branches get alternating trains--with the latter alternating between Rayners, Ruislip, and Uxbridge as the final destination. During the morning peak, at least, every other Uxbridge branch starts from Arnos, the service pattern is roughly: Heathrow Uxbridge Heathrow Ruislip (starts Arnos) Heathrow Rayners Heathrow Uxbridge (starts Arnos) ...etc, etc, etc. There are also some Northfields ones chucked in there, though, which I *think* go in place of Uxbridge ones, since they're reversers too, but I wouldn't swear to that without having had another look at the sheet. Off-peak (Saturday, I think) doing OPO duties at Oakwood once I kept a list of all the train destinations, with the pattern being Heathrow, Heathrow, Uxbridge branch (switching between, U, Ruislip and RL). All of these are just observations ;)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 10:32:03 GMT
as a service operator who works at rayners lane i have tosay sometimes it gets very frustrating when in times of disruption the rayners branch gets very neglected, in fact i had one collegue call the controller and as for some to be sent our way, although the last time i was on and we had the service up the wall we were manging to maintain headways of about 12-15 minutes so credit to them for that.
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Post by Oracle on Jul 5, 2007 10:55:07 GMT
I confess that I did not appreciate the Rayners line until around 1981 when I worked for a time in Wealdstone and used to go by train from Hounslow West to Acton thence to South Harrow, and finally onwards by bus. Also, trying to get to Eastcote for LURS meetings, Then I became too aware that the branch could be a poor relation to the Heathrow one at times.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 11:58:10 GMT
Am I right in saying that BAA pays for xx number of trains per hour to serve Heathrow? Or am I confusing it with the service from Padd through Hayes & Hart? You are correct, which is why they very rarely turn a HEathrow into a Rayners Lane. We are the poor relation up this part of the world and have been for some time, and i dare say it will get worse when T5 opens.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 11:59:58 GMT
Off-peak (Saturday, I think) doing OPO duties at Oakwood once I kept a list of all the train destinations, with the pattern being Heathrow, Heathrow, Uxbridge branch (switching between, U, Ruislip and RL). If it was a Saturday, there are no booked reversers at Ruislip. They may of course turn an Uxbridge into a Ruislip.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 14:08:35 GMT
They also think nothing of delaying the District service whilst they block up the platforms at Acton Town with Pic trains. It is not at all uncommon to be stuck at Ealing Common for 20 mins with an ex Rayners Lane Pic train stuck in front whilst Pic trains Ex Heathrow continue to get priority routing through Acton Town ...It's why so many Tower Hill trains get turned at Mansion House.
It is very frustrating and inexcuseable indeed !
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Post by Tomcakes on Jul 5, 2007 14:30:45 GMT
Indeed, IMO they shouldn't decide who gets a decent service based on payment of money. Yes Heathrow has an airport and this ought to be considered but also you need to consider the fact there are stations between North Ealing and South Harrow that have just the Picc, no extra services like Heathrow does. If the Picc service to Heathrow falls down people can get Heathrow Express or a bus or something, Uxbridge branch has nothing else.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 17:03:55 GMT
AFAIK there is no deal with BAA over the heathrow service, it's all down to passenger numbers.
There is a deal over the Jubbly at Canary Wharf and I believe that T5 will have a similar deal.
I'll ask our friendly DMT at Acton Town to read this thread and maybe I'll convince him to join the forum.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 18:16:47 GMT
There were three incidents yesterday that would have caused the service on the Picc to be poor. Just before my meal break there was a fire alert at Green Park which shut down the eastbound for twenty minutes and there were also two signal problems, one at Wood Green, the other at Ealing Common. I agree with (un)happybunny that in times of service recovery the Rayners branch does seem to be neglected, unless it is really bad and they introduce a shuttle. Having said that, when I was due to finish yesterday (around 1330) there hadn't been a Heathrow train for around ten minutes, which included the one that I was driving that I had to reverse at Acton because I was an hour late. All lines on the Underground are the same - when they are good,they are good, when they are bad, they are very bad.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 19:46:47 GMT
This is why I think that TfL ought to seriously consider constructing a full-scale reversing point at York Road station, with one or more turnback sidings, to allow trains to be reversed more readily in the central trunk of the Picc and avoid running them all the way out to Arnos Grove and Cockfosters.
Sure, it would be stupidly expensive (as all things worth having on a railway seem to be these days), but I think it would be an excellent long-term investment, especially if the reopened station could be linked to a new station on the NLL.
As for services at Acton, I think it would make a lot of sense to remodel the e/b approach to allow trains from Ealing Common and trains from South Ealing to simultaneously approach the e/b platforms. Right now, all of them share a short length of the e/b fast, which means that you can't have a District and a Picc enter the station at the same time from either branch.
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Post by ruislip on Jul 6, 2007 0:53:24 GMT
District to Rayners Lane. The District appears to be the most complicated line for Timetabling ,etc. At Ealing Bway it has space and time to sort itself out before heading back towards Upminster. Could all this be handled at Ray.Lane with one reversing siding and the extra travelling time neccesary ? There are three tracks at Uxbridge, so I don't know if that would compete with the intensity of the Met's service(IIRC that is 6tph off-peak and 12 tph in the peak flow direction).
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Post by ruislip on Jul 6, 2007 0:57:39 GMT
I wonder how many members remember the old Wood Green reversers? I think the last were in '79, and ran "shorts" to Barons Court. In those days Uxbridge was only really served M-F in the peaks. Can't remember if Acton Town was also a regular reversing point, although Northfields was, and of course Rayners Lane off-peaks. All I wanted in those days was to get back to Hounslow West and could not give a toss about the Rayners branch. I do. I think after the Picc was extended to Heathrow initially, the Barons Court reversers became Acton Town reversers. Speaking of which, where did these trains actually reverse for the return Eastbound trip? Did they enter Ealing Common Depot, or did they use one of the extra tracks between Acton Town & Northfields?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2007 2:23:13 GMT
I think one of the reasons that the Uxbridge branch has fewer passengers (aside from the obvious draw of the airport on the Heathrow) is that the service is so poor. No disrespect to Picc people but it's really not worth the hassle of travelling on. And that's coming from somebody who lives literally 2 minutes from the Picc line! Off-peak seems to be every 15-20 mins and I regularly waited 30 mins until I sussed that buses to other lines are actually a faster way of getting around. It's a bit of a vicious circle. Unless Uxbridge branch gets more passengers then it will always be little brother. But it's never going to get more passengers until it improves. And if it comes down to bums on seats then the Heathrow branch will win every time. And I think I win with 9 trains going by to Heathrow and Northfields before a Rayner's Lane one came along.
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Post by Oracle on Jul 6, 2007 6:57:34 GMT
Acton Town reversers used the central siding (I think it was only one) between the WB and EB Hounslow branch tracks.
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Post by c5 on Jul 6, 2007 9:27:38 GMT
The passengers should be lucky they don't have to live on the Hammersmith branch of the Met!
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Post by tubeprune on Jul 6, 2007 12:04:03 GMT
Barons Court Reversers:
Just for the record, the off-peak service pattern in the time of the Barons Court reversers was that one group of trains did Cockfosters-Rayners Lane-Cockfosters every 10 minutes while the other did Arnos Grove-Hounslow-Wood Green-Barons Court-Arnos Grove every 10 minutes giving a central area frequency of 3 trains per 10 minutes. Barons Court reversers ceased in July 1975.
It is worth noting that the Picc peak used to have 32 trains per hour in 1968 with 38/59TS but now they can only manage 24, which is a 25% reduction. The 73TS capacity is about 10% less than 38/59TS and the running time has increased by 10%. In effect, the capacity of the line is now 65% of what it was but the passenger numbers are up by 30%.
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Post by johnb on Jul 6, 2007 12:18:38 GMT
The passengers should be lucky they don't have to live on the Hammersmith branch of the Met! Indeed: there haven't been any trains on the Hammersmith branch of the Met for nearly 17 years. Now that's a *long* time to wait... John B
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2007 13:00:08 GMT
I'll ask our friendly DMT at Acton Town to read this thread and maybe I'll convince him to join the forum. His reply : We (LUL) are under contract by BAA to provide so many trains per hour, that is why the Heathrow branch will take some precedent. It's also possible that some of those Northfields trains could well have been timetabled to run down to Rayners, but may have been cancelled into the depot. There are other reasons and without a train number, time and destination I can't comment specifically
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2007 13:02:42 GMT
As for services at Acton, I think it would make a lot of sense to remodel the e/b approach to allow trains from Ealing Common and trains from South Ealing to simultaneously approach the e/b platforms. Right now, all of them share a short length of the e/b fast, which means that you can't have a District and a Picc enter the station at the same time from either branch. That isn't strictly correct. A train ex-South Ealing and a train Ex-Ealing Common or Ealing Depot; A train ex Acton west siding and one from either Ealing Common OR South Ealing OR Ealing Depot; or TWO ex South Ealing. can approach Acton e/b at the same time provided one is being routed in the local and one in the fast. The track location is complex indeed, but Acton Siding merges with the Eastbound fast, Ealing Common Depot meges with the Eastbound Ealing. Eastbound Ealing then splits and routes either to the Eastbound Fast or to the Eastbound Local. So Eastbound Ealing line can access Eastbound Local without traversing Eastbound Fast. It is possible to get from any track to any platform west of the station except Eastbound Local to Eastbound Fast which must be done east of the station or whilst still on the "Heathrow Branch". Still with me ....ok ... I'll get me coat ! ;D ;D ;D
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