Future of Uxbridge services

[ruislip]

What do you think will happen, with the preponderance of service being to Heathrow.

1) The Picc will run to Ealing Broadway, with the District taking over the entire Uxbridge branch?
2) The Picc will run to Ealing Broadway, with the District taking over the servies as far as Rayners Lane--with peak hour extensions to Uxbridge (and possibly Ruislip)?
3) The Picc will run to Ealing Broadway, with the district taking over the services as far as Rayners Lane; those wishing to travel as far as Uxbridge can change to the Met at Rayners all the time?
4) The Picc will only operate a shuttle between Acton and Uxbridge?
5) The Picc will only operate a shuttle between Acton and Rayners Lane--with peak hour extensions to Uxbridge (and possibly Ruislip)?
6) The Picc will only operate a shuttle between Acton and Rayners Lane; those wishing to travel as far as Uxbridge can change to the Met at Rayners all the time?

[Deleted]

I believe the realistic long-term solution once T5 opens and the Olympics draw nearer is:

To have the District take over services to Rayners Lane, and peak services to Uxbridge, while retaining services to Ealing Broadway.

The Picc only operating between Cockfosters & Heathrow putting the extra track/s at South Ealing & Northfields to better use for reversers to/from the depot, and maybe finding a way to use Ealing Broadway when the service requires it.

Possibly the operation of a shuttle service between Acton Town & Ealing Broadway, only at weekends (like the Northern; Finchley Central to Mill Hill East). And of course, each line filling in for each during works (the Picc to Rayners, District to Northfields/Hounslow Central, if it can be done).

But for now, it is more than likely the Rayners/Uxbridge branch will suffer and have its service reduced, as its big business down at Heathrow, and it keeps getting bigger, so the service will need to be upped to cater for it.

However, this is only what I believe would be ideal. Remember that with the introduction of the S stock, and the 73's in-line for replacement in the future, plus possible expansions/closures that could arise in the next few years, it may seem ideal now, but come the future, it may not!

[Chris M]

Does the district have enough trains (and operators) to run to Rayners AND Ealing Broadway? Would the operation be able to cope with another western branch - the four it has at the moment seem to tax it enough as is when disruption occurs.

If the Picc does just have the Heathrow branch, what about perhaps stopping T4 services at Turnham Green throughout the day and T5s non-stopping throughout the day.

Does the trackwork exist for an Uxbridge/Rayers to Richmond via Acton Town service? Perhaps as a dedicated line, operated maybe by the Overground and extending somewhere beyond Richmond? What about An Uxbridge/Rayners to Northfields service, maybe allowing Heathrow trains to non-stop South Ealing?

Another possibility that I believe trackwork exists for is an Uxbridge/Rayners to HSK service. I suspect capacity at Earls Court might be a sticking point here though.

Just some initial thoughts outside the box that are probably completely impractical.

[Deleted]

The Uxbridge branch is just too far out to let the District run it. It is already almost always faster to take the Met to Baker Street/Finchley Road and change there instead of taking the Pic, even when going to a Piccadilly line station. Adding extra stops would make the Pic almost useless.
It seems logical to me that services would be cut short to Rayners Lane, the Met. is going to run 10 tph along that branch once they get their A stock anyway. I'm just not sure if Rayners Lane can handle 16 tph, of which 6 would be reversers, and how that could be solved.

[Deleted]

was speaking to an underground friend of mine he is an mananger on the pic he was saying the plan was to run the picc to ealing

[Deleted]

I don't think that the Picc/District Ealing Bdy/Uxbridge swap could occur until the District Line has sufficient new S-stock. In the mean time, a regular Rayners Lane-Acton Town shuttle would cause operational problems due to tipping out times at Acton Town, and gaps in the EB service, and is thus not an ideal solution.

[Deleted]

Perhaps it can be supplied by some of the first S stock, while (temporarily) holding back the D stock.

[Deleted]

It could also be possible that those trains that currently run Arnos Grove - Northfields will become the T4 service (Arnos - T4). They currently run at around 10 - 15 mins intervals, which would fit in with the envisaged service to T4.

[Deleted]

Well considering that District runs a spartan service towards Rayners, I don't see a problem with them going there permanently.

[Deleted]

Too bad that the Heathrow extension was built to tube gauge and that South Acton to Acton Town curve is no longer in situ, now covered in buildings. Well, quite a few "what-ifs", but it could have been nice to divert the NLL four trains an hour to go to Heathrow T4 instead of Richmond.

Through rail services could also be run from Watford Junction to Heathrow. Actually, scratch that, there's a curve 300 yards SE of North Acton -- through services to Heathrow a la Heathrow Connect could be run today, so perhaps South Acton curve not so useful...

[Colin]

This subject has been done to death already, hasn't it?

districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=picc&action=display&thread=1126006160

Yep, I know it's a very old thread - but I think every possible permutation was discussed within it.

[Oracle]

May I just, very respectfully, remind that the Hatton Cross extension was built "to a price", and it was built to tube gauge and just under the surface because of costs. However at least it was built! Further, the replacement of the Lampton Road and then Kingsley Road bridges with replacements to tube gauge prevented the use of sub-surface stock from running to Hounslow Central with its trailing #-over, the only between Boston Manor to Hatton Cross [unless any more have been put in!]. Sub-surface stock cannot therefore be used in the event of engineering work west of Central.

I was rather amazed to read the other day what I susoected, that the original 19th Century proposal was for the Hounslow and Metropolitan Railway branch to Hounslow Town to extend further south to meet up with the LSWR.

[Deleted]

Future planning is mooted that Picc trains will run to Uxbridge up to and beyond 2014. Course we all know that this could change such is the fickle nature of LUL planners.

[Ben]

In LB Hillingdon's LIP (Local Implementation plan - kind of short list of things they want to do) an extension of the Uxbridge Branch to Heathrow is mentioned, via Cowley, West Drayton and Harmondsworth. A railway along the corridor is certainly needed, but it would also have an unexpected benefit. If connected end on at Heathrow to Terminal 5 station, T5 trains could be extended up to Uxbridge and back round the system that way.

[c5]

benedict said:

In LB Hillingdon's LIP (Local Implementation plan - kind of short list of things they want to do) an extension of the Uxbridge Branch to Heathrow is mentioned, via Cowley, West Drayton and Harmondsworth. A railway along the corridor is certainly needed, but it would also have an unexpected benefit. If connected end on at Heathrow to Terminal 5 station, T5 trains could be extended up to Uxbridge and back round the system that way.

These are just pie in the sky Local Authority dreams! Croydon has had a 2020 Vision for donkeys years.... and the place just gets worse!
Heathrow could do with a rail line south toward Feltham though..... maybe???

Also at Uxbridge, how would it get to the former GWR line, without significant tunnelling?

[Oracle]

Heathrow could do with a rail line south toward Feltham though..... maybe???

I think I have mentioned this ad infinitum, and ad nauseum? The first proposals that I know date to around 1965 at least, and back then there was a lot less building on a logical route than there is now. The monorail shuttle was also suggested as mentioned before. I think I am right in saying that the Southern Region and Picc extensions were going forward eventually together, but in the end just the Picc was proceeded with, under the auspices of the GLC to whom LT had been transferred by the Government. As is well knwo airport express buses were laid on to a new bus station at Feltham, i.e. railair links, and all Windsor line trains then stopped at Feltham to suit. I am never sure that it was ever well used. There was also the railair coach links to Woking and Reading.

[Deleted]

yea your right the 285 bus does it now feltham to heathrow via hatton cross

it is always busy and its the bus i get home most of the time or for people going to hatton cross their is the 490 route


their is a new line proposed running out the former waterloo int to feltham and over stanwell moor and on to heathrow t 5 then on to t123

plans are in place

also the windsor and reading services are going to be moved over to the water int when eurostar moves out

[orienteer]

benedict said:

In LB Hillingdon's LIP (Local Implementation plan - kind of short list of things they want to do) an extension of the Uxbridge Branch to Heathrow is mentioned, via Cowley, West Drayton and Harmondsworth. A railway along the corridor is certainly needed, but it would also have an unexpected benefit. If connected end on at Heathrow to Terminal 5 station, T5 trains could be extended up to Uxbridge and back round the system that way.

Unfortunately the former GWR branch line from W Drayton to Uxbridge has largely been built on. Also it's difficult to see how the existing Uxbridge line could be extended, as it already descends quite steeply into the town centre terminus, so probably couldn't economically go underground.

[Ben]

It would have to go underground before Uxbridge somehow I'm guessing, else it would involve demolishing most of Uxbridge centre. Its not been built upon too much; only near sites of stations, but being practical about it, the line would need to be in tunnel all the way from hillingdon-heathrow.
I merely mention it as an interesting yet somewhat quixotic solution to a very real future problem!

[Deleted]

robster said:

plans are in place

In fact, more than just plans are in place, two platforms at T5 are in place!

[Deleted]

That'd indeed require a lot of tunneling, and I don't think it's a particularly important corridor. The buses and express buses along that route are doing their work right now, and aren't exactly filled up. It'd only serve a local use anyway.

[DrOne]

Although this topic has been discussed to death it does seem to interest a lot of people (like me!)

Heathrow branch is clearly able to sustain an exclusive route through London. T5 will only re-enforce this point. Rayners Lane branch will require a dedicated solution involving curtailment at Rayners (with the necessary work to allow conflict-free terminating and interchange) and:

A. Acton-Rayners can be transfered to District but an efficient & reliable service will require one of its western branches (Wimbledon?) to be taken over by another line.

OR

B. Construct a link on the Central from West Acton-North Ealing and let it take over the rest of the line to Rayners, with North Acton-West Ruislip (and beyond) being taken over by NR.

Basically any plan to re-jig the tube in west London will require another line to take trains through central London. Am I the only one who thinks those 14tph Crossrail trains that will be terminating at Paddington could be used somewhere in West London?

[Deleted]

The only way you could sever the link between the Wimbledon branch and the mainline District through the City would be if you transferred the entire branch to a brand new tube line. Anything else would be unacceptable to the traveling public using the Wimbledon branch.

[DrOne]

theonekea said:

The only way you could sever the link between the Wimbledon branch and the mainline District through the City would be if you transferred the entire branch to a brand new tube line. Anything else would be unacceptable to the traveling public using the Wimbledon branch.

Agreed. Sorry if I gave the impression of tagging it onto another line, that's not what I meant. Just like Heathrow the Wimbledon branch has enough traffic to supply a dedicated service through the city. The current arrangements for the District branches are quite funny, especially when compared with the tube in NW london.

[Deleted]

The only solution in my opinion to maintain the current District and enhanced Picc Heathrow service would be to run the Rayners Lane service as a full time dedicated shuttle service from Acton to Rayners, either run by the District or Picc, the same way the Woodford - Hainault service operated on the Central line.

[Deleted]

i heard that the picc was going to be taking over the ealing service as it would require a small amount of traines

[Deleted]

jim said:

The only solution in my opinion to maintain the current District and enhanced Picc Heathrow service would be to run the Rayners Lane service as a full time dedicated shuttle service from Acton to Rayners, either run by the District or Picc, the same way the Woodford - Hainault service operated on the Central line.

But wouldn't the time taken to tip out the Rayners Lane shuttle at Acton Town limit the line's capacity?

[Deleted]

dstock18 said:

i heard that the picc was going to be taking over the ealing service as it would require a small amount of traines

That would cause more problems than solutions I imagine!? Having to reverse District Line trains in and out of Acton through running traffic would surely cause havoc!

That said, is it even possible to go from Platform 1 - Sidings - Platform 4?

[c5]

vbn said:

dstock18 said:

i heard that the picc was going to be taking over the ealing service as it would require a small amount of traines

That would cause more problems than solutions I imagine!? Having to reverse District Line trains in and out of Acton through running traffic would surely cause havoc!

That said, is it even possible to go from Platform 1 - Sidings - Platform 4?

Yes from platform EB Local to all 3 sidings and from 21rd siding (nearest w/b line) to WB Local, but D Stock arent allowed to do the latter.

I think the main annoyance would be having to change trains, I can see possibly in the future the current detrainment procedures being relaxed, espcially for S Stock!

[Colin]

c5 said:

Yes from platform EB Local to all 3 sidings and from 21rd siding (nearest w/b line) to WB Local, but D Stock arent allowed to do the latter.

Pardon? D stock's can do all move's at Acton!!