Speaking of S Harrow Viaduct...

[happybunny]

Why is there, to the WEST of South Harrow, coming off the track viaduct, there seems to be like a extension kind of going in South-East kinda direction. I have noticed this a few times whilst on the train going past but never gave it much thought. Was it built with a different branch/extension in mind. It doesn't look wide enough to accommodate 2 tracks though. Anyone know? I have put links which load to two overhead images of this, the first showing it close up the second showing it in relation to the station. Thanks

www.babycakes.homechoice.co.uk/shar2.jpg

www.babycakes.homechoice.co.uk/shar1.jpg

Edited by Colin - never noticed this thread before, but I have now changed the images to links as they break the forum rules on image file sizes by a considerable margin!! (5/10/07).

[Deleted]

Used to link to the Gas Works, which were where the industrial units are now, and I understand these have again been flattened for yet more housing!

[happybunny]

Oh, interesting. So was it just gas pipes? Linked to the Piccadilly line?

[Deleted]

No, I think the siding supplied wagons... I'm not 100% if they were coal trucks that went in...

[c5]

It was a single line spur off to a nearby gasworks

[happybunny]

So they ran trains to this gasworks? What was the purpose of this??

[c5]

Probably to drop off whatever it is they used in the gas production (school was a long time ago) ;D ;D

I can recomend this though for finding out things like this www.amazon.co.uk/London-Railway-Atlas-J-Brown/dp/0711031371

[Deleted]

The Metropolitan Railway used to deliver Coal Waggons to that siding gor the production of 'Town Gas' i believe until 1962 if memory serves correctly, i don't have my book to hand to verify.

There is a picture of a Met F Class Tank heading towards South Harrow from Rayners Lane somewhere i've seen, the coal deliveries continued until demands on line capacity and aging tank locomotives put a stop to it.

Cheers,
~ Matloughe

[Deleted]

The Met was a "proper railway": most of its stations had goods yards and there were sidings into industrial areas, such as gas works, that needed material delivered by rail.

This was also true of the LNER lines taken over by the Northern and Central. I can remember BR goods trains along the East Finchley to Edgware line. Domestic coal was distributed from the goods yard at Finchley Central (where the car park is now), and there was a gas works by the station at Mill Hill East that had its coal delivered by rail.



The gas works was in the area bounded by Bittacy Hill and Sanders Lane, with rail access along what is now the east-west part of Bittacy Road to a connection facing towards Edgware.

[mrfs42]

I think there's a machine-readable copy of the 1935 diagram for Rayners Lane somewhere on this site. I think TOK was asking if the automatics were numbered in the A500 series on that branch.

The 1935 diagram shows the connection to the gasworks; it had gone by 1957 when South Harrow became controlled remotely from Rayners Lane. Looks like crossovers 101, 102, 103 had been removed sometime prior to 1957 (access to the gasworks itself and two trailing crossovers in the main).

[Hutch]

So they ran trains to this gasworks? What was the purpose of this??

As others have said, primarily to deliver coal which was used to produce the town gas which is not the same as the North Sea gas we use today. If my school memory serves me correctly the coal was roasted in retorts driving off volatiles (including methane) which was used to fire the retorts themselves. This resulted in the production of coke which is nearly pure carbon. Steam was then passed over the superheated coke resulting in the reaction:-

C + H₂0 --> H₂ + CO

The resultant flamable gas of hydrogen and carbon monoxide was therfore poisonous - hence you could 'gas' yourself. Today you cannot poison yourself with North Sea (natural) gas which is methane (CH₄), but you can still be blown up in a gas explosion.

Leaving the gasworks by rail would be byproducts of the process, mainly tar and ammonia products. Left over coke was often carted away by kids in old prams on a Saturday morning for a few old pennies.

[Deleted]

According to the Piccadilly Line book (Capital History) the gas works closed 4th April 1954

[mandgc]

It was not until I read happybunny's remarks above that to an old fogie like me there is a whole generation of folk out there who may not be aware of the vast organisation in providing coal to Gas Works until after the war.
Until Natural Gas replaced Coal Gas for domestic purposes in the 1960s coal from the collieries was delivered to the various local Gas Works around the country by rail for producing Gas. In addition many Steel Works had their own Gas plants for processing their products. Gas Works around London served by rail included South Harrow, Mill Hill East and Epping. The amount of coal transported to Gas Works could have equalled that delivered to Coal Merchants and other domestic users.
In addition ,before the National Grid, a considerable amount of coal was carried to Electricity Power Stations for domestic use.

[Deleted]

When did coal trains stop serving Mill Hill East?

[Oracle]

Brian Hardy in UNDERGROUND # 9, of which I was the Editor, states the MH gas works closed in 1961, and freights ran to MH East goods yard until 1 October 1962, MH (The Hale) 28 February 1964, and Edgware 4 May 1964. Charrington's coal yard moved from Edgware to the former LNER site at Neasden. From 1961 the N7? locos had given way to tripcock-fitted Type 1 BTH diesels, later class 15, probably based at Hornsey.

[Tomcakes]

mandgc said:

In addition ,before the National Grid, a considerable amount of coal was carried to Electricity Power Stations for domestic use.

But that was still the case after the National Grid - and to an extent still is today - coal still needs to get from collieries to power stations.

Edit: though, as I don't think there are many power stations near London, not on LUL metals.

[Deleted]

oracle said:

Brian Hardy in UNDERGROUND # 9, of which I was the Editor, states the MH gas works closed in 1961, and freights ran to MH East goods yard until 1 October 1962, MH (The Hale) 28 February 1964, and Edgware 4 May 1964. Charrington's coal yard moved from Edgware to the former LNER site at Neasden. From 1961 the N7? locos had given way to tripcock-fitted Type 1 BTH diesels, later class 15, probably based at Hornsey.

Thanks, Oracle. I've never seen a photo of Mill Hill East taken before the 1970s.

Edit: Just done a quick search on the new LT Museum site, and found this gem here.

[Oracle]

I am amazed that I found this thread...couldn't find it this morning. That's the sort of photo that you want I hope:
districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=northern&thread=1179434074&page=1

David H Mk 1.

I suggest that although the photo was taken at Mill Hill East, the loco was "shunting" a coal train at Mill Hill (The Hale). Looks to me as though it has dropped off its train and is running light engine back?

[Oracle]

Does anyone recall the brief reference to the line on the TV programme NATIONWIDE, which must have been in the late Sixties? They filmed sections of the line extant through to Edgware and were talking of a possible re-opening I think.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the link, David H Snr.

I remember 'Nationwide', but not the bit about the Edgware line.

[mandgc]

The National Electricity Grid linked the larger generating stations around the country which continued producing and enabled some small stations to be supplied more effeciently from elsewhere whereas the Natural Gas Grid (as I understand it) replaced the local production of Coal Gas.

[railtechnician]

I'm wondering after following this thread just when the gas works were built.

I have a reprint of Railway Junction Diagrams 1915 and there is no spur shown from South Harrow to a gas works. It may be that it was a very short spur and left off the diagram but I am wondering.

Brian

[mrfs42]

For what it's worth, as I remember at this time of the morning - the RCH were not particularly interested in private sidings - single company servicing. Teh RCH got it's revenoo out of joint lines and being a bargaining house.

[railtechnician]

mrfs42 said:

For what it's worth, as I remember at this time of the morning - the RCH were not particularly interested in private sidings - single company servicing. Teh RCH got it's revenoo out of joint lines and being a bargaining house.

Yes that's true but I thought the siding might just be jointly served by the Met Rly and the Metropolitan District as they were then. There was no Picc there in 1915!

Brian

[mandgc]

R C H Diagrams.

I agree , the Diagrams were to show the distances to be apportioned between the various members of the RCH only and did not take into consideration any line not a member (and so did not show private sidings).

The line from Rayners Lane to South Harrow (exc) was wholly owned by the Met. Railway who were not inclined to share their freight revenue with another Railway ! In fact the Met was serving the Gas Works before the District started running West of South Harrow.