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Post by railtechnician on Oct 6, 2007 11:11:55 GMT
I presume there are new traction current sections west of PiccEx junction to T5. As BAA has built and owns T5 I presume that it has also built a new substation to supply the traction current as well. Would I be correct in thinking that there are four new current sections and accompanying tunnel telephone sections i.e. T123 to T5 westbound, T5 to T123 eastbound and one section for each siding road similar to that found at Charing Cross on the Jubilee line? I have heard that the newly installed tunnel telephone circuits have reverted to tunnel wires rather than a bunched cable with a phone every 50 metres, can anyone confirm this?
Brian
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Post by North End on Oct 6, 2007 16:12:19 GMT
I presume there are new traction current sections west of PiccEx junction to T5. As BAA has built and owns T5 I presume that it has also built a new substation to supply the traction current as well. Would I be correct in thinking that there are four new current sections and accompanying tunnel telephone sections i.e. T123 to T5 westbound, T5 to T123 eastbound and one section for each siding road similar to that found at Charing Cross on the Jubilee line? I have heard that the newly installed tunnel telephone circuits have reverted to tunnel wires rather than a bunched cable with a phone every 50 metres, can anyone confirm this? Brian There is no new substation at T5, except possibly for station services. The extension is single-end fed from the existing Heathrow Central Substation.
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 6, 2007 17:26:37 GMT
There is no new substation at T5, except possibly for station services. The extension is single-end fed from the existing Heathrow Central Substation. I must admit that I was wondering who would be operating the sub if it was built by BAA although I'm sure I've read somewhere of an involvement between EDF Energy and T5, EDF of course being the parent/owner whatever of Seeboard/Powerlink these days. So if T5 is single end fed I expect it's safe to assume just a further two current sections and T/T sections then. That will make the T/T circuits interesting. I believe the Ford Electronics system was being installed for the extension with a rack installed in the T/T Relay Room at T123 alongside the racks for the existing three sections. I presume a rack has been installed at T5 but all the equipment may simply be at T123 unless there are current parallelling arrangements at T5. Of course T5 was never intended to be staffed by LU staff so it may have been prudent to locate as little equipment as possible there as access may have been very difficult. As I understand it this situation is not going to prevail as it would have been ridiculous in the event of point and signal failures. Brian
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Post by c5 on Oct 6, 2007 17:34:48 GMT
The sections are Heathrow T123 to Heathrow T5 WB and Heathrow T5 to Heathrow T123 EB, and these are Single End Fed from T123.
There are motorised sections switches that will be able to isolate one or both sidings. I think there were indeed Tunnel Telephone Wires fitted to these sections.
I will have to look it up to see if the sections are coupled at the T5 end and which sidings are fed from what road, as well as if there is a changeover switch for the sidings. I cant recall off the top of my head!
Also T5, will be staffed by a LUL Station Supervisor in respect of LUL Incident Management and Failures, I think they will also be trained to operate the Emergency Signalling Panel too.
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 6, 2007 17:51:00 GMT
The sections are Heathrow T123 to Heathrow T5 WB and Heathrow T5 to Heathrow T123 EB, and these are Single End Fed from T123. There are motorised sections switches that will be able to isolate one or both sidings. I think there were indeed Tunnel Telephone Wires fitted to these sections. I will have to look it up to see if the sections are coupled at the T5 end and which sidings are fed from what road, as well as if there is a changeover switch for the sidings. I cant recall off the top of my head! Also T5, will be staffed by a LUL Station Supervisor in respect of LUL Incident Management and Failures, I think they will also be trained to operate the Emergency Signalling Panel too. Ah yes of course it will be the one interlocking on the Picc without a lever frame! My understanding is that the site is PLC controlled and that is a first for the Picc Line. The Emergency Signal Panel I presume is PC based in a similar fashion to the emergency signal controls at Ash House. I am also wondering if the Heathrow T123 computer which the SOs saw as three Programme Machines has been replaced with a PLC. Brian
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 7, 2007 5:27:49 GMT
Yes the North(East) end is done with standard looking PCs, as I recall there were more than one and Earls Court had two where the original 1980s 'metal mickey' used to sit. Any chance of a clearer/larger shot of the T5 panel? It would be nice to see the detail if possible. I note the PC on the desk is showing T123 and T4 so I presume that is done with tracker as it shows the 'existing' layout although I can't recall the Picc being on the tracker system when I worked at Earls Ct. There are no programme machines and no mimic computer at Hatton Cross unless one has been installed since I retired in 2005. It is a card site and all the functions are generated electronically. There are no PMs or mimic computers west of Boston Manor except at T123 and they were very finicky when it came to loading the timetables!
Brian
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2007 6:07:04 GMT
Good to see lots of home signals for T5. Does anyone know what the calculated rorit is for the arrival track?
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Post by c5 on Oct 7, 2007 11:49:41 GMT
Good to see lots of home signals for T5. Does anyone know what the calculated rorit is for the arrival track? Well the shunt signal will clear 15 seconds after the train's arrival!
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Post by hobbayne on Oct 7, 2007 19:00:58 GMT
Why the X signals on the approach to T5? And what speed does the draw up clear at??
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Post by JR 15secs on Oct 8, 2007 12:11:44 GMT
Signals X400B timing section 68.9m 55kph, second shot 101.6m, X400C timing section 60.2m 48kph, second shot 74.1m and WZ1100 timing section 42.3m 34kph second shot 33.3m.
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 8, 2007 13:13:55 GMT
Signals X400B timing section 68.9m 55kph, second shot 101.6m, X400C timing section 60.2m 48kph, second shot 74.1m and WZ1100 timing section 42.3m 34kph second shot 33.3m. Perhaps I'm being particularly thick here: I don't quite get these distances - or the second shot. Using X400 B as an example: the 55kph is the target speed, so what's the first figure of 60.2m - the length of the timing section; and what's the second shot distance of 101.6m - is this the distance from the stick?
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Post by JR 15secs on Oct 8, 2007 13:41:07 GMT
That's the distances of the timing sections go to the top of the class.
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 8, 2007 14:00:45 GMT
That's the distances of the timing sections go to the top of the class. ;D Yebbut from where?
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Post by JR 15secs on Oct 9, 2007 1:57:55 GMT
Sorry I thought you may have a plan, the one I have is very long.
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 9, 2007 10:03:19 GMT
Sorry I thought you may have a plan, the one I have is very long. Interestingly the helpful post showing the panel at T5 seems to have been removed now!
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Post by Oracle on Oct 9, 2007 10:19:47 GMT
I did find it interesting when it was up, however on reflection perhaps it probably should never have been posted. I am aware that publicising signalling and train numbers, say, is "sensitive". This site has had numerous posts in recent times about information not readily available.
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 9, 2007 18:05:38 GMT
I dunno, actually. If you were to take the line that the person concerned had legitimate access and also hadn't been told such things were not to be be photographed then the pictures would be OK.
I reallyreallyreally don't want to light the blue touch paper, I'm just thinking of several signalling websites (open access too) I know of where the entire content is both not readily available and current! The content was, needless to say, obtained in a legit manner.
Anyway, my very great thanks to whoever took the picture - I've got a couple of potential quessies which I might PM in due course (got a cached copy of the piccies). I can now update the notes in the T4 peril!
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Post by Oracle on Oct 9, 2007 18:35:06 GMT
I had my first "sensitive" moment with the GLC as it then was, who were dealing with the T4 extension...they regularly gave me info over the phone about all sorts of technical aspects, amendments, Acts of Parliament, etc. but as one chap realised that he had no authority to reveal certain details I respected his concern and never published it. Regrettably now, anything to do with airports is subject to scrutiny under the umbrella of "security".
I have been PMd from a fellow member who sent me information on another line and I respected the fact that he then asked me to amend it: I decided that as he had not mentioned it it might (also in my opinion) have fallen foul of LU regulations. I thought that he realised that it might be so construed and result in further action, so I reacted accordingly.
As a journalist I try to ensure that I publish the truth, and nothing that will come back to bite me or anyone that supplies info, photos or whatever.
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Post by c5 on Oct 9, 2007 18:38:09 GMT
I'd removed the photo as I was having a "digital clearout" ;D ;D Here tis, once again! I stand to be corrected by the Admins here! We (as a forum) are not allowed to say where exact locations of signal rooms or control centres, other than their name, or post photos of the exterior of it or any "critical" areas or of security features. I would not advise as to posting Service Controllers (Level 2) Diagrams as it would be a breach of copyright as well as giving details of Traction Current sections etc. The bit about train numbers, if I recall, was post incident to keep details private for those involved. There are various websites around with old and newish photos of signal centres and rooms, www.anorakheaven.co.uk is one. I also see that Doncaster Signal Box has its own website! I wonder if the likes of Coburg St (NorVic) would do the same ;D ;D ;D
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 9, 2007 18:39:51 GMT
OOOH! Thank-you. ;D
Glad to see that I'd guessed the crossover numbers correctly!
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 9, 2007 20:21:05 GMT
I'd removed the photo as I was having a "digital clearout" ;D ;D I stand to be corrected by the Admins here! We (as a forum) are not allowed to say where exact locations of signal rooms or control centres, other than their name, or post photos of the exterior of it or any "critical" areas or of security features. I would not advise as to posting Service Controllers (Level 2) Diagrams as it would be a breach of copyright as well as giving details of Traction Current sections etc. The bit about train numbers, if I recall, was post incident to keep details private for those involved. There are various websites around with old and newish photos of signal centres and rooms, www.anorakheaven.co.uk is one. I also see that Doncaster Signal Box has its own website! I wonder if the likes of Coburg St (NorVic) would do the same ;D ;D ;D Thanks for the repost and a slightly better definition image. I hear what you say regarding locations etc but I retired with 28 years service on the Underground and apart from the JLE I worked at every station bar one across the combine, many of the substations, many disused areas both on and off the tube and almost all the offices so I understand the security aspects. When I first worked on the system in the 1970s there was virtually no operating supervision of engineering and I saw the job go from no security to in some cases OTT security. I spent my last 9 years on the whole Picc and the Jube from Charing Cross to Stanmore so I saw a great deal of empire building under the auspices of improved security! I don't know if it still exists but an element of the Earls Ct. control room staff had their own website though I can't recall the URL. It had lots of faces on it! Brian
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 12:58:02 GMT
Nice pic. Didn't they advise in the briefing that photography really isn't allowed within the T5 complex? And if you do manage to grab some crafty ones they were definitely not to be published? This came about because a picture was taken and a rail magazine got to publish it and in the photograph was a bloke without a hard hat on so HAL issued advisories about photography. Not that too many people take notice of it. Got one of the panel in the SER at T5 which is a lovely bit of kit. Soon as I get to find out how to upload it, etc:-)
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Post by Chris M on Oct 11, 2007 14:35:51 GMT
Does anyone know if the standard LU photography permit will be valid at T5 or will one have to get a permit from BAA (if they do such things)?
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 11, 2007 16:08:52 GMT
Does anyone know if the standard LU photography permit will be valid at T5 or will one have to get a permit from BAA (if they do such things)? I have no idea but of course anyone with a camera is a target for old bill and his pals these days. Some of my contacts in the bus groups have been accosted frequently since 9/11 and more so since 7/7. Mind you working permanent nights for many years in the city and west end got me stopped frequently in marked company vehicles, the law even turfed out the whole Transit van outside HOP one night on my way to Lambeth North! Now I can understand van searches and people searches but banning photography is in my opinion a step too far! What comes next as we move headlong into a Police state, compulsory blindfolds? Obviously what is generally off limits to the public is another matter as that can be construed quite rightly as a privacy issue. Brian
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Post by Oracle on Oct 11, 2007 16:36:14 GMT
In view of the hassle I have heard of, and actually seen, at Southampton Airport which is BAA-owned, I would ask the BAA Press Office direct. Otherwise expect to be accosted rapidly by machinegun-toting men and women in blue, and even being threatened with action under the Civil Aviation Act, Aviation Security Act, Public Order Act, etc.
I go back to when the BAA had their own police, and made life tough for us spotters/photographers at Heathrow. Now if you have a camera and hang around at one spot, you are prime candidate for an interview and have your details taken down and checked.
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Post by c5 on Oct 11, 2007 20:13:45 GMT
Ah!
But who says this photo has been taken at T5!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 20:58:39 GMT
Computer to the right is a dead giveaway ;D
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Post by Oracle on Oct 11, 2007 21:51:38 GMT
"HEATHROW TERMINAL 5 (WZ)"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 23:42:12 GMT
Ah! But who says this photo has been taken at T5! Indeed. I would not be surprised if SER 'WZ' is actually located at T123, as T5 will not have the staff licensed and trained to use its ELCP.
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 12, 2007 0:02:41 GMT
Ah! But who says this photo has been taken at T5! Indeed. I would not be surprised if SER 'WZ' is actually located at T123, as T5 will not have the staff licensed and trained to use its ELCP. It's possible but I doubt it although having said that the original T123 platform SOR might have been a suitable location for it. In any case as has already been stated the giveaway is the PC showing the T4 loop. Though BAA intended to run T5 itself I understand that pressure was brought to bear when it was made patently obvious that in the event of a track,point or signal failure they would be out of their depth. Apparently all staff working at T5 station etc have had to be vetted and had a CRB check before being able to gain entry. This is a growing trend in in the UK and an LT staff ID is not enough, indeed it has not been for some time. I remember being gobsmacked a few years ago when I was subject to CRB checks to work in places I had worked for 20+ years! I continue to be amazed that TfL, LUL and others think that people don't know where things are located. Many official publications and books through the years have made it perfectly obvious where many sensitive places are. Mind you I think 55 Bdy is relatively safe being a stone's throw from New Scotland Yard although I'm not certain that helps, didn't it get its Police payroll details stolen? Brian
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