Whole Line Suspended

[Deleted]

As far as I understand it, acid etched windows on a train mean it must be withdrawn from service immediately. There are health and safety notices to this effect at the booking on points on the H&C and i presume elsewhere on the combine. A driver cannot know whether it has been "neutralised" so to err on the side of caution it must go out. Management have tried to give drivers car numbers which have been "neutralised" in the past to try and keep trains running but as nobody can know whether the culprit, or another vandal has gone back and gone over the "neutralised" graffiti again - the window must be replaced.

Word is that the Bakerloo acid etched graffiti was not a "Blitz" style attack, but indeed the trains had been running around daubed with it for a very long time. The reason for the sudden closure is that drivers were unaware of the dangers of acid etched graffiti (not sure if notices about it are displayed over there) and on Saturday a little bird told them of the procedure thus leading to a massive glut of trains going out and the subsequent suspension of the line.

I believe the fault here lies in the maintenance of the trains and a breakdown in communication somewhere along the line. Whatever happened to the "Zero-tolerance" attitude to graffiti we are always told about? The presence of acid-etched stuff isnt really an issue on the C stock's windows as the drivers have been aware of the procedure for years, but the normal etching is everywhere (we were assured on the line specific "time to talk" it was being removed immediately - yeah right!), the red-front of the cabs is downright disgusting for the most part with various "tags" all over it, and I wouldnt be surprised if that too was acid etched as it appears to have burnt itself into the livery. Whats the health and safety take on that?

To be honest though, I don't think it matters what we do to combat it, the vandals will always find a way to get their tags up, no matter what the risk... As we sadly saw at Barking the other week.

[Chris M]

The acid etching looks nasty stuff. I saw a 92 stock with a tag that looked burned into one of the doors (rear set of double doors on the right hand side of the leading car iirc) last time I was in London. It was running in passenger service to Newbury Park or Hainault (I was waiting for an Epping train). I think this was at TCR.

[Deleted]

Once again it's a sad reflection of our society
Some brainless individuals find the need to do their art all over our tube trains and attempt to make it more permanent. Thinking, look at my lovely work, now lots of people can enjoy it. When all we think is i wonder what poor, sad, mindless little prick did that. Obviously these individuals don't mind being thought of in that way. When i use to travel to Dollis Hill in the 70's i dont remember seeing this kind of rubbish all over the 38 tube stock. Is it just another recent Americanisation trend or was LU more effecient at cleaning then.

[agoodcuppa]

cabdarren said:

Is it just another recent Americanisation trend or was LU more effecient at cleaning then.

The former.

Paint has been available in spray cans for thirty plus years but it's only in the last twenty or so that a minority of morons have felt the need to "express themselves".

That's not to say that there wasn't graffiti before, but it was usually confined to the toilet walls and other such places and written with something that was easy to remove,

The only reason that LU restarted painting the trains was because the paint used by the graffiti morons left permanent marks on the oxidised surface that had built up on the bare aluminium. Thus causing considerable and unnecessary expense.

[Ben]

If it werent for the acts about the colour differences to use for partially sighted people, LUL could use a silver paint; therefore if the trains are scratched it would be less noticeable against the aluminium colour.

The courts must start making the punishments harsher. Doubtless it wouldn't deter many die-hard criminals, but the free labour to clean it off would be extremely welcome.

[tubeprune]

cabdarren said:

Is it just another recent Americanisation trend or was LU more effecient at cleaning then.

IIRC, the first serious instance ocurred in August 1984 on the Metropolitan Line at Neasden Depot. It had been going on in New York City for about 10 years before that.

[bwhughes]

There are only 30something trains on the Bakerloo. 33 are needed for peak service. This is still a terribly high number of damaged trains though.

I think TfL need to change their page so that it says how many 72TS are in service! It says how many are on each other line!

I thought that 60 trains might be too much for shorter lines like the Bakerloo - I was just struck at the number of potential trains that could have been damaged for only six to be available.

[tubeprune]

A total of 22 trains were reported as damaged. At the time the line was shut down, there were 6 trains left in service out of the off-peak total of 29 but one is a manned spare. There are 36 x 7-car trains in the fleet.

[bwhughes]

Cheers tubeprune!

Still, 22 trains are a large number even by today's standards to be damaged in the same depot simultaneously.

I am wondering why this hasn't been reported in RAIL magazine because it is a serious incident for the Underground.

The most recent RAIL was published on Saturday, at least several days after the acid etching.

It should also be recognised the excellent job the graffiti repair team must have done ;D to get practically all of the fleet fit for service again within such a short time!

Unless this is an incident that LU does not wish to publicise (in which case I will not mention this to RAIL)

[Colin]

bwhughes said:

Unless this is an incident that LU does not wish to publicise (in which case I will not mention this to RAIL)

I don't see why LUL would want to make a secret of it - the reason given at the time was vandalism and was communicated via PA across the network as well as on the internet, teletext, etc.

If it were such a secret, this very thread wouldn't exist either

[Deleted]

colin said:

bwhughes said:

Unless this is an incident that LU does not wish to publicise (in which case I will not mention this to RAIL)

I don't see why LUL would want to make a secret of it - the reason given at the time was vandalism and was communicated via PA across the network as well as on the internet, teletext, etc.

If it were such a secret, this very thread wouldn't exist either

Perhaps it's more to do with not giving other vandals the same idea. I'm sure if it was widely publicised every spraypaint kiddie and their auntie would be out buying acid.

[Phil]

Yes, and when the little darlings got burnt by their own acid they'd sue the naughty magazine who put the ideas into their poor little heads......

[Dmitri]

gappe said:

every spraypaint kiddie and their auntie would be out buying acid

I can't help wonder how do those kids manage to get hydrofluoric (etching) acid, given that it is very toxic...

[Deleted]

I very much doubt it was a kid.

[sm]

you serious they use hydrofluric acid??

that stuff is seriously nasty... chases proteins round the body and even a small untreated contact can be lethal

[Colin]

sm said:

that stuff is seriously nasty... chases proteins round the body and even a small untreated contact can be lethal

Exactly, that's why they use it.

[Chris W]

I've just had a quick look at what HYDROFLUORIC ACID does long term - & I quote from:
www.chm.bris.ac.uk/safety/hf.htm

"While HF gas is one of the most acidic gases known, aqueous HF is technically a weak acid. However the definition "weak" bears no relation to hydrofluoric acid's ability to damage living tissue with fluoride ions rapidly absorbed through the skin and able to migrate through and destroy tissue until they are eventually sequestered in the bones. HF damage causes long- term excruciating pain and burns which are slow to heal. Burns around the finger- tips are reputed to be particularly painful and may require the surgical removal of finger nails."

Those who use this substance should be aware of the risks that they are exposing themselves to - somehow methinks they may not & perhaps more scary, they may not even care!

[Phil]

Don't forget that until recently (and perhaps still now) you could buy home glass-etching kits to etch your numberplate onto the car windows and headlights as a theft deterrent.....
It came as a paste embedded onto a sellotape-type material: can you still get it? It was definitely hydrofluoric acid.

[Deleted]

Glass etching kits and materials are widely available in the US. Froogle turns up lots of hits for hydrofluoric acid, as a lab item, and any craft store sells glass etching pastes and liquids.

[yellowsignal]

cjw said:

Those who use this substance should be aware of the risks that they are exposing themselves to - somehow methinks they may not & perhaps more scary, they may not even care!

Honorary Darwin awards for all!! Talk about self-inflicted punishment....