watford extention

[Deleted]

when will the bakerloo be re-extended to watford junc is it even
gonna happen?

[Deleted]

May be soon after Silverlink hand over control to TfL... the track needs an upgrade anyway! Those 313's do tend to bounce along!

[Deleted]

Bi more to it than running through ! - restoration of the negative rail to start with plus issues with platform stepping etc.

Bit costly all that.

I thought the 313s ride better than the 72TS - espcially south of Harrow !

[tubeprune]

I cannot see the Bakerloo going to Watford. There is no business case for it.

[Deleted]

Glad you said that - was being diplomatic ......

[tubeprune]

I failed the Diplomatic Corps exam!. As for Watford, the new Overground service plans are for the frequency to be increased when the new trains arrive in 2008-9.

[cetacean]

tubeprune said:

As for Watford, the new Overground service plans are for the frequency to be increased when the new trains arrive in 2008-9.

Are you sure? Everything I've found that mentions frequency increases ties it in with the Bakerloo Line transfer. The new Overground fleet is not going to be any bigger than the old one, so there's not much scope for improving frequency.

[tubeprune]

Sorry, cetacean, you are right. I was looking at the LRC concession in general and I assumed Watford was included with other frequency upgrades. It remains at 3 tph.

[Deleted]

when the 67ts spare trailers and UNDMs go over to the Bakerloo, will they be left with blue insides and armrests? It will be a little strange to have half a train in blue and the other brown.

[towerman]

Would imagine they would be line branded and also modded for manual OPO as was done to the Mk1 72's that currently reside on the Bakerloo.BTW,it looks a shoo in that the Bakerloo will take over the Watford branch,LUL's upgrades document says as much the extra stock coming from the 67/72TS hybrids on the Victoria Line.

[johnb]

I don't understand why people think the Bakerloo Watford extension isn't going to happen (now, the Met Watford Junction extension is another story!).

It's the only way TfL's plans for London Overground can be made to make sense [by freeing up the track between Willesden and Euston, hence allowing a greater frequency between Willesden and the soon-to-be-four-tracked section from Camden Road]. And it oughtn't to cost much, either - especially if ex-Vic stock can be used for another 10 years.

*thinks* - is there actually any need to convert the Vic stock, or could the sets just be remarshalled so that all the ex-Vic cabs are on the inside and only used for shunting, as on the A-stock?

[towerman]

The 72Mk1 cabs would have to be extensively modified,train radio,OPO alarm,door controls.Don't forget,when these units moved to the Victoria they were crew operated on the Northern so have never had any OPO mods.

[soupdragon]

BUMP

Does anyone know if there has been further discussions on the subject of extending the Bakerloo back to Watford. Does TFL have any dates in mind as to when this might happen.

On the subject of zones I understand that zones A-D are to be replaced with zones 7,8 & 9. with Carpenders Park in 7, and Bushey & Watford High St in 8, but Watford Jct will remain outside the TFL fare zone, which all seems a bit odd to me?

[superteacher]

Yes that does sound bizarre!

[metman]

London Midland and other TOCs were upset on lost revenue I think?

As to stock conversion, it would probably be easier to keep the 67s on the outside and rip off all the ATO gear, and use normal DOO.

The lack of UNDMs will mean that some 7 car trains have double cabs in the middle. A four car set that is modified into a 3 car unit will need a trailer removed and the remaining trailer (a special trailer in 72s) will need some of the scrapped trailers components like the brake units. See Tubeprunes excellent site for details.
www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/72%20tube%20stock.htm

[superteacher]

metman said:

London Midland and other TOCs were upset on lost revenue I think?

Good point. I suppose if Watford Junction joined the zonal system, people could then use the fast services into Euston, which as you say, would affect revenue! Maybe Ken wasn't prepared to compensate them, although when the Bakerloo does get extended back to Watford and / or the Croxley link is built, I think it will then join the TFL zonal system.

[metman]

I hope so. It's a strange situation, I expect that London Midland/Virgin will increase their ticket inspectors between Watford Jn-Euston to make up for revenue dodgers! I don't see the Croxley Link being built especially if Crossrail is anything to go by!

[Deleted]

tubeprune said:

I cannot see the Bakerloo going to Watford. There is no business case for it.

The idea is that they withdraw the Overground north of Queens Park with the Bakerloo taking the entire DC lines service over. The 'saving' to the Overground will be redeployed else where on the Overground network. Thats according to Overground's MD Ian Brown (ex DLR).

Idea is for Bakerloo to go back north in next 10yrs or so. Might be attached to new Bakerloo trains (if they get them any time soon).

[metman]

I hope they do it in 2011/12 using 67ts. Overground can't make to many improvements until the electrostars get released from the DC lines.

[Rich32]

soupdragon said:

BUMP

On the subject of zones I understand that zones A-D are to be replaced with zones 7,8 & 9. with Carpenders Park in 7, and Bushey & Watford High St in 8, but Watford Jct will remain outside the TFL fare zone, which all seems a bit odd to me?

As I understand it, Watford Junction will be in a 'Zone W' from January.

[Deleted]

soupdragon said:

BUMP

Does anyone know if there has been further discussions on the subject of extending the Bakerloo back to Watford. Does TFL have any dates in mind as to when this might happen.

On the subject of zones I understand that zones A-D are to be replaced with zones 7,8 & 9. with Carpenders Park in 7, and Bushey & Watford High St in 8, but Watford Jct will remain outside the TFL fare zone, which all seems a bit odd to me?

TfL say Bakerloo to Watford is planned in the "medium term". Round about 2010-12 after the Victoria Line Upgrade has been finished just incase the new trains mess up.

[superteacher]

IMO, it's a done thing that it will go back to Watford. The fact that the stations from Kensal Green to Kenton have been transferred to LUL rather than London Overground seals it for me. When the Bakerloo goes back to Watford, it's simply then a case of transferring the remaining stations over to LUL control.

The main thing would be restoring the 4th rail. On a recent journey up to Watford Junction, I noticed that the rail has not been dropped to track level throughout, particularly around Watford High Street. That said, it's rusted beyond belief, and no doubt would need renewing entirely.

Slightly off topic, but when the Bakerloo was withdrawn north of Stonebridge Park in 1982, was all of the 4th rail kept to Watford until the restoration to Harrow in 1984? I heard that there was a lot of uncertainty as to whether the Bakerloo would be restored at all, and if so how far north, and that the infrastructure north of Stonebridge Park was maintained until a final decision was made. Only then was the 4th rail north of Harrow decommisioned. Is this correct?

[Deleted]

davesgcr said:

Bit more to it than running through ! - restoration of the negative rail to start with plus issues with platform stepping etc.

Bit costly all that.

I thought the 313s ride better than the 72TS - espcially south of Harrow !

There is a special compromise platform gauge for the dual use section of the DC somewhere between the platform levels normal for tube or mainline only platforms.

As for the neggie rail north of Harrow as you can imagine rail up to 94 years old that has not been maintained for 25 years, is not in the best of condition, would need large scale replacement before the tube trains venture north of Harrow.

[metman]

I imagine, they will throw in new aluminium rail, ala Watford Sth Junc! It should be pretty painless as long as the current feeds are sorted out!

[Deleted]

metman said:

I imagine, they will throw in new aluminium rail, ala Watford Sth Junc! It should be pretty painless as long as the current feeds are sorted out!

I think 150lb steel is more likely than aluminium con rail, and no need for feeds as the neggie rail on Network Rail is simply earthed to the traction return running rail. Altering this to the LU system would involve altering all the power and signalling cable arangements.

[metman]

Thats true! It should be a piece of cake getting LU trains back up north then!

[superteacher]

Does anyone know what time the four Bakerloo trains left Watford in the morning - were they evenly spaced?

[mrfs42]

superteacher said:

Does anyone know what time the four Bakerloo trains left Watford in the morning - were they evenly spaced?

Yes, about 7.5 minutes apart, then a break of 20 minutes then another brace at 7.5. I think I've got most of the WTTs for the period - when I can get into the LU library [1] I'll give you more gen.

[1] yet another person asleep in that room Why do people who come to work on steam engines get in the bloody way?

[superteacher]

mrfs42 said:

superteacher said:

Does anyone know what time the four Bakerloo trains left Watford in the morning - were they evenly spaced?

Yes, about 7.5 minutes apart, then a break of 20 minutes then another brace at 7.5. I think I've got most of the WTTs for the period - when I can get into the LU library [1] I'll give you more gen.

[1] yet another person asleep in that room Why do people who come to work on steam engines get in the bloody way?

Thanks - it must have been quite a trek for the drivers to get to Croxley Green depot to pick up those trains - I assume the drivers who did these runs were based at Queens Park?

[tubeprune]

superteacher said:

Thanks - it must have been quite a trek for the drivers to get to Croxley Green depot to pick up those trains - I assume the drivers who did these runs were based at Queens Park?

The official walking time for Croxley Green was 33 minutes.