Paddington crossover

[Deleted]

I was just looking at Stephen K's excellent line maps, and was reminded of the trailing cross-over at Paddington.

I don't remember a northbound train ever terminating there, reversing it would presumably clog up the works not a little.

Is it ever used (rusty rail movements at least, I suppose)? Is it worth maintaining, even?

[Deleted]

It is used quite often during signal failures, as the next SB x-over is quite a distance away at Piccadilly Circus. I travelled through the x-over when trains were reversing SB-NB at Paddington after the failed bombing attempts with the Bakerloo being suspended south of Paddington.

[Deleted]

It was used not too long ago when there were engineering works on the drains at Queen's Park. *Most* of us got it right and remembered to stop and go back the other way.....

[Deleted]

Even more useful now the Piccadilly crossover is "temporarily" out of comission. With the Metronet fiasco going on it's anyone's guess when that'll get sorted now.

With no working reversing points between Paddington and Lambeth North it doesn't give the 'Loo much scope when the job goes up the wall.

When there was a shutdown at, say, Oxford Circus they could run Elephant - Piccadilly and Queens Park - Paddington shuttles. Now the whole job goes pear-shaped with no service south of Paddington, which is obviously the busiest section of the line.

Of course you could run Elephant - Lambeth shuttles but i've never known them to bother. There would be no point anyway as it's only one stop and there are no interchanges at Lambeth. It also involves a long shunt (as do all north to south Bakerloo moves in the pipe) which holds things up a little as innocentabroad rightly suggests.

Very simple line though, the Bakerloo.

[trc666]

Is that crossover between Waterloo and Lambeth a scissors?

[Deleted]

Yep. Lambeth is exactly the same layout as the Elephant except with an additional route into London Road depot. Southbound trains departing Waterloo can be signalled into either SB or NB platforms at Lambeth or the yard. Additionally trains doing the long shunt on the NB road can be signalled back south to Elephant or into the yard. Hence late at night some trains are described Waterloo and go straight in the depot and others have to shunt back empty from Elephant via Lambeth limit of shunt board.

[trc666]

Did Marylebone have a crossover?

[Tom]

Yes, as did Edgware Road.

Somewhere I have a photo taken in the crossover cavern at Marylebone (I think).

[Ben]

Are there any long term plans for the reinstallment of some of these cross-overs? I know the Picc suffers a similar problem in the center.

[Oracle]

The original Piccadilly Circus scissors crossover was famous, and photos also appeared in period (i.e. old) books. I can remember when they took out the EB/SB > WB/NB connection. It surely needs to be reinstated as asap?

[Deleted]

oracle said:

The original Piccadilly Circus scissors crossover was famous, and photos also appeared in period (i.e. old) books. I can remember when they took out the EB/SB > WB/NB connection. It surely needs to be reinstated as asap?

AFAIK, the scissors crossover at Piccadilly Circus had operational issues when trains were reversing SB - NB in the NB track. There are also the passenger flow problems with having side platforms. Thus it would probably be easier just to reverse trains in the SB platform. This makes reinstalling the scissors crossover largely pointless, especially as it is only used during engineering works or signal failures.

Reinstalling the Marylebone crossover would allow for more flexibility during engineering works or signal failures. However if trains are reversing SB-NB there, there would be lots of passengers being dumped at a station with no other useful SB connections. At least with NB-SB reversals passengers could transfer at Baker Street. If bi-directional signalling could be installed between Marylebone and Baker Street, then trains could reverse SB-NB at Baker Street, making the crossover more useful. However, this would not really be cost effective until the signalling is replaced sometime in the next decade.

[Oracle]

I agree, in that I cannot ever see the scissors being reinstated...I do hope that the SB>NB is put back into operation though. I do remember it being used for Engineer's trains but have never seen it used in passenger service in either direction.

[Deleted]

Have reversed both ways at Picc in the past on quite a few occasions, it certainly never used to be uncommon. The problem with the scissors was (if i remember rightly) that a SB train reversing in the NB platform had to over-run the platform by a car or so to clear the points a la 8 car Mets reversing west to east at Baker St via the C&H platforms, thus causing headaches and delays regarding getting the punters on/off. I'm assuming that back in the day they ran shorter trains over this move.

[Deleted]

Thanks to you all for your replies.

I'd clean forgotten that there might be a need for a Queen's Park to Paddington shuttle - if I never travel north of Paddington why should anyone else

[mandgc]

Bakerloo Crossovers.

MARYLEBONE- I seem to recollect---NO! I seem to recollect reading !-- that the Marylebone XO was used at the opening (between Elephant and Baker St, even before 'Great Central' station was opened, as Baker St. Platforms were on different levels. Trains were later reversed at Edgware Road XO , calling at the newly opened Great Central,when the service was extended there. Marylebone XO was taken out of use.
PADDINGTON- Details were discussed earlier on this board of the need for South to Northbound reversers to draw forward to clear the NB Starting Signal before reversing.
PICCADILLY- The Facing crossover was put in at the beginning of the 1939-45 War to enable trains to reverse in the NB platform also when the line under the river was closed during Air Raids. Trains had to draw forward about two car lengths to clear the XO before reversing.

[Deleted]

All south to north Bakerloo emergency reversers (lambeth, picc, paddington) in the SB platform need to stop beyond the monitors in order for the north end cab to be in the right place for the signal and monitors to run back north. if you look closely at any of these locations you will see another stopping mark provided in the 4ft beyond the normal through running one. there are also little squares (quite big at padd) that illuminate with the instruction to "reverse". and of course the "shunt ahead" or "shunt reverse" lights at the north end of the northbound platforms for trains running back south. although in practice the driver would likely have been told before they got there. Picc also has (or did have) a "rear cab clear" light at the north end of the southbound platform from the days of the shutdown for tunnel strengthening in the 90's when stepbacks took place there.

while i'm off on one, there used to be "depot" lights at Elephant northbound headwall for the london road stablers. i'm assuming they are still there too.

[tubeprune]

prakash said:

All south to north Bakerloo emergency reversers (lambeth, picc, paddington) in the SB platform need to stop beyond the monitors in order for the north end cab to be in the right place for the signal and monitors to run back north. if you look closely at any of these locations you will see another stopping mark provided in the 4ft beyond the normal through running one. there are also little squares (quite big at padd) that illuminate with the instruction to "reverse". and of course the "shunt ahead" or "shunt reverse" lights at the north end of the northbound platforms for trains running back south. although in practice the driver would likely have been told before they got there. Picc also has (or did have) a "rear cab clear" light at the north end of the southbound platform from the days of the shutdown for tunnel strengthening in the 90's when stepbacks took place there.

Obviously there is a problem with how these work. Last week a driver was told to reverse at Paddington south to north. He changed ends and started north without ever seeing the wrong road starter. Luckily the control room saw what was happening and took the juice off. At the same him, the train was back tripped on the SB inner home. There was an hour's delay while they got another T/O to take over.

I couldn't find any reference to drawing forward in the line supplement.

[Deleted]

tubeprune said:

prakash said:

All south to north Bakerloo emergency reversers (lambeth, picc, paddington) in the SB platform need to stop beyond the monitors in order for the north end cab to be in the right place for the signal and monitors to run back north. if you look closely at any of these locations you will see another stopping mark provided in the 4ft beyond the normal through running one. there are also little squares (quite big at padd) that illuminate with the instruction to "reverse". and of course the "shunt ahead" or "shunt reverse" lights at the north end of the northbound platforms for trains running back south. although in practice the driver would likely have been told before they got there. Picc also has (or did have) a "rear cab clear" light at the north end of the southbound platform from the days of the shutdown for tunnel strengthening in the 90's when stepbacks took place there.

Obviously there is a problem with how these work. Last week a driver was told to reverse at Paddington south to north. He changed ends and started north without ever seeing the wrong road starter. Luckily the control room saw what was happening and took the juice off. At the same him, the train was back tripped on the SB inner home. There was an hour's delay while they got another T/O to take over.

I couldn't find any reference to drawing forward in the line supplement.

It may be best to reserve judgement on what went wrong there. There were a number of things which did (or may have) happened and it's not yet clear which signal tripped him.

[Tom]

prakash said:

Even more useful now the Piccadilly crossover is "temporarily" out of comission. With the Metronet fiasco going on it's anyone's guess when that'll get sorted now.

Easter 2009 was the date I heard...

[bakerloo38]

Aug 8, 2007 0:43:50 GMT @gappe said:

It was used not too long ago when there were engineering works on the drains at Queen's Park. *Most* of us got it right and remembered to stop and go back the other way.....

Detrain, obey signals, pull up to 7 car mark, shut down and blow down, change ends, open up fully charge train line, obey signals and check points are in your favour and pull into south bound platform.