New Trains on the Bakerloo

[Deleted]

This is a bit of a rant but it is a serious question as well; Why are the Bakerloo Rolling Stock not being replaced until 2019? I understand the current stock may still have "useful" life but it really aggravates me to see the Jubilee Line and Piccadilly line scheduled to receive brand new stock well before the Bakerloo line when the stock they are running is already newer than Bakerloo stock. The reason I ask is because the Bakerloo line is VERY hot (even in the winter) - Why aren't we getting new cars with ventilation systems such as that on the Jubillee line? Are there "old" trains going to be transferred to the Bakerloo Line and why is the Victoria Line, running the same stock (mostly) as the 'Loo line now being replaced in 2009?!

Sorry if that was rantish, but does anyone have an answer?

[Deleted]

new stock isn't going to help a huge amount with ventilation anyway; cooling the tunnels will be the priority. The Bakerloo's capacity isn't at breaking point in the same way the Piccadilly's is, so the Picc will be getting new trains so that automatic train operation can be utilised.

The Bakerloo heat problem is mostly to do with the fact that it terminates in tunnel, so air can't escape at both ends of the tunnel. The Victoria line trains are 5 years younger, and are far more tired than the 72ts because of passenger loadings and the stress of ATO.

The Jubilee received the 1996ts because of the new line was going to have ATO from the start, but time ran out and the systems weren't developed enough. Also, the Jubilee would have a seventh car added eventually, and manufacturing additional cars of 1983ts would be stupid because of the door limitation amongst other things.

The 1972ts seem to be fine, there is not a massive case to replace them yet, as there are enough trains and they received a 'deep clean' from tubelines quite recently.

[cetacean]

drewpost said:

why is the Victoria Line, running the same stock (mostly) as the 'Loo line now being replaced in 2009?!

Because the replacement is chiefly part of the capacity upgrade on each line, not to bin life expired stock. The 1967 stock would presumably have been around a few years longer if the need to upgrade capacity on the Victoria wasn't so pressing.

[railtechnician]

Surely who gets what and when is largely determined by Tube Lines and Metronet ability to deliver so I would expect the Bakerloo, Central, Victoria, District and Met to be the poor relations unless someone sorts out Metronet's financial problems.

Brian

[johnb]

@ Rob: Viccy trains are 5 years *older*, surely?

@ Brian: not really - everyone involved has publicly pledged to deliver the line upgrades including new trains - it's only the station upgrade programme that is on hold for the time being. I'm sure PJRB will confirm that the VLU and SSL programmes are still very much go!

To add to everything else - the availability of 1967 stock post-VLU will allow capacity to be enhanced on the Bakerloo, since it's interoperable with 1972 stock (obviously this will need remarshalled so that non-ATO cabs are on the outsides...)

[c5]

And of course the tendering process for the PPP had different bids, thats why the new trains everywhere are taking so long. The Infrastructre Service Charge is thus lower as a result!

You Pay for whay you get!

[Deleted]

the 72 stock are pretty reliable it's only the amount of passengers and lack of air conditioning systems tht is the problem the refurbishment was of the bakerloo and victoria line units was pretty rubbish.
p.s.I don't think the 96ts will be withdrawn untill about 2040-50 they are still quite 'new'

[Deleted]

delboy200 said:

the 72 stock are pretty reliable it's only the amount of passengers and lack of air conditioning systems tht is the problem

Air conditioning in tube stock has two major problems.

1. It is very difficult to find any space for the equipment in the limited size of tube stock.

2. Air conditioning in the trains would just pump heat into the tunnels, which are already more than hot enough.

[railtechnician]

sydneynick said:

delboy200 said:

the 72 stock are pretty reliable it's only the amount of passengers and lack of air conditioning systems tht is the problem

Air conditioning in tube stock has two major problems.

1. It is very difficult to find any space for the equipment in the limited size of tube stock.

2. Air conditioning in the trains would just pump heat into the tunnels, which are already more than hot enough.

Yep and not helped by the fact that many tube area offices have the heat from their aircon units pumped into vent shafts and other subsurface areas. Tottenham Court Road is a prime example, even at 0330 in the midst of winter the vent shaft would be like a greenhouse when I had the fan turned off while doing cable diversions there but during the day with trains running and the fan on it was not much cooler!

Brian

[Tom]

rob said:

The Bakerloo heat problem is mostly to do with the fact that it terminates in tunnel, so air can't escape at both ends of the tunnel.

There is a vent shaft at the south end of the tunnel - but it doesn't have a cooling effect, it's mainly there to stop the air going stale.

I'm there are much warmer places on the Bakerloo than Elephant sidings - Lambeth North and Charing Cross both spring to mind.

[railtechnician]

tom said:

rob said:

The Bakerloo heat problem is mostly to do with the fact that it terminates in tunnel, so air can't escape at both ends of the tunnel.

There is a vent shaft at the south end of the tunnel - but it doesn't have a cooling effect, it's mainly there to stop the air going stale.

I'm there are much warmer places on the Bakerloo than Elephant sidings - Lambeth North and Charing Cross both spring to mind.

Yes I agree, I walked the Bakerloo from E&C to Queens Park on several jobs over the years. On the resignalling at the end of the 1980s E&C sidings was definitely the warmest space at track level in engineering hours. I spent several weeks walking Embankment to E&C and back on a nightly basis when installing train radio leaky feeder and commissioning stick phones. At the time the coolest points were Waterloo platforms and the tunnel to London Road.
At the other end I worked in the middle of winter and that was no fun at all, even the IMR in the sheds at Queen's Park was like an ice box but the lineman's depot under the old cabin was a cosy spot as long as the lineman wasn't in residence! The site was so short of room that we installed the stick phone concentrator in his depot as I recall.
It was not long after the resignalling that I replaced all the Tunnel Telephones on the Bakerloo and then every night just inside the tunnel was a warm one sweating connections to the tunnel wires with a blowlamp.

Brian

PS Rather perversely perhaps the warmest place ever was the BR signal cabin at Stonebridge Park! When the North Circular Road was being widened I was involved in the diversion of LT cables in the BR troughing and went to see the signalman to get my bearings. The heat emanating from the cabin as I opened the door reminded me of snowing duties at Woodford in the late 1970s when the only respite from the weather was five minutes an hour in the signal cabin!

[Deleted]

drewpost said:

This is a bit of a rant but it is a serious question as well; Why are the Bakerloo Rolling Stock not being replaced until 2019?

according to Modern Railways Nov 07, the new Bakerloo trains from Bombardier are due 2016. Part of the reason why the Bakerloo's at the end of the queue for new trains and signalling is "to avoid disruption by engineering works so that the line can relieve the parallel Jubilee lind during resignalling". I've not heard this before myself, has anyone else?

[DrOne]

2016/19 is quite far off but it's probably at least worth waiting for all the proposed service and infrastructure changes affecting the line to be put in place before the slapping on new stock. I'm mainly referring to the switch of the Watford local service from Euston to Bakerloo as well as the proposed Overground Stratford-Queens Park service.

New stock would be a nice finish to all those changes, especially if its ATO and manages smoother, quicker journeys.

[Ben]

If a long term aspiration is for the bakerloo to go further south, then it would make sense to wait for the extension so as to order the new stock in one batch. Possibly?

[metman]

With you there Ben! We also get to enjoy proper trains for a while longer!

[Alight]

railtechnician said:

Surely who gets what and when is largely determined by Tube Lines and Metronet ability to deliver so I would expect the Bakerloo, Central, Victoria, District and Met to be the poor relations unless someone sorts out Metronet's financial problems.

Brian

Yeah true. Tubelines has only 3 lines to concentrate on whereas metronet are already trying replace a whole fleet for Victoria and the 4 subsurface lines.

Problem which I can see one is angry about is the way the Jubilee is already so technological advanced, but it seems to keep on getting the most updates in everything leaving the other lines which perhaps need it more to suffer. The Jubilee isn't even one of the busiest lines, but I suppose it does have the advantage its a straight forward route unlike more complex lines such as the northern.

[miztert]

mauve said:

railtechnician said:

Problem which I can see one is angry about is the way the Jubilee is already so technological advanced, but it seems to keep on getting the most updates in everything leaving the other lines which perhaps need it more to suffer. The Jubilee isn't even one of the busiest lines, but I suppose it does have the advantage its a straight forward route unlike more complex lines such as the northern.

The line between Canary Wharf and central London is packed pretty solidly during the rush hour.

[Colin]

mauve said:

Problem which I can see one is angry about is the way the Jubilee is already so technological advanced, but it seems to keep on getting the most updates in everything leaving the other lines which perhaps need it more to suffer. The Jubilee isn't even one of the busiest lines, but I suppose it does have the advantage its a straight forward route unlike more complex lines such as the northern.

The Jublilee line will get priority in certain areas over other lines because agreements are in place with the Canary Wharf area to provide a certain level of service.

The Waterloo & City line is another example - many commentators wonder why the 92ts down there isn't added to the Central line stock and replaced with something older that will be quite happy on the short line.............the answer is simple! The City of London corporation funded those trains.

Money & influence does wonders

[Alight]

miztert said:

mauve said:

railtechnician said:

Problem which I can see one is angry about is the way the Jubilee is already so technological advanced, but it seems to keep on getting the most updates in everything leaving the other lines which perhaps need it more to suffer. The Jubilee isn't even one of the busiest lines, but I suppose it does have the advantage its a straight forward route unlike more complex lines such as the northern.

The line between Canary Wharf and central London is packed pretty solidly during the rush hour.

Indeed I see what your saying but statistics for passengers per year show Jubilee isn't in the top 5 so I do classify it as a busy line however not one of the busiest.

[c5]

The work being done on the Jubilee is what should have been done when it opened. It is not the most hi-tech line out there and does need more trains for the Canary Wharf. The ATO should have been installed from day one. In the end trainstops and conventional signalling had to be put in (left over from the Central line I think)

It is also not the most simple, most of the line is signalled by Circle line staff, operating Metronet equipment and also using a Metropolitan line depot (albeit as a stabling point).

[Tom]

c5 said:

TIn the end trainstops and conventional signalling had to be put in (left over from the Central line I think)

Ripped out from the Central, sent to Westinghouse for an overhaul and a mod to replace the snake with a litton connector, and re-installed on the JLE.

[Deleted]

Also there's some big event of some kind happening in a few years time at the Stratford end. Not sure what's happening though, I've heard nothing about it in Newham.

[c5]

hardcastle said:

Also there's some big event of some kind happening in a few years time at the Stratford end. Not sure what's happening though, I've heard nothing about it in Newham.

Is this this new sports ground that is gobbling up lots of money or the new train crew depot ;D ;D ;D

[Deleted]

hardcastle said:

Also there's some big event of some kind happening in a few years time at the Stratford end. Not sure what's happening though, I've heard nothing about it in Newham.

I think its the rebuilding of Strafod station. They're rebuilding the old pre JLE entrance (to the east of the current station), new Central line platform (the into Central London side meaing that direction will have two platforms to assist boarding) and the new northern ticket hall (which will link directly into the Olmypic park/Stratford City). There's also going to be a new link bridge over the current Central/One running lines linking the Olmypic site with the Stratford town central vai the station. basically if you know where the current taxi rank is, the side next to the station is where the bridge is going to go over on its way into Stratford linking straight into the shopping center there.

They are already started advanced works on the Central line platforms as witnessed recently with the hi-vis workes behide the JLE building. Basically they have to do this because Stratford is already busy (and poorly designed) and won't cope as the secondary access to the Olmypics (main transport hub is Stratford International).

Theres nothing on the TfL site about it strangely (tho they refer to the Victoria station works as "The proposed improvements at Victoria", even they've started on them already). If I come across any more info will date (especially with links).

[Deleted]

and the ticket barriers about 5 of them then a long glass screen dwell times could be reduced if they used that space

[Deleted]

delboy200 said:

and the ticket barriers about 5 of them then a long glass screen dwell times could be reduced if they used that space

Yes I've often wondered why they don't get rid of that screen and move the Jubilee platform barriers there.

[happybunny]

Will the Central have reversing facilities at SFD after the work?

[metman]

I wouldn't have thought there would be enough room for a x-over. I must take a look there myself sometimes.

[Tom]

There are no plans to make Stratford a reversing point for central line services.

[superteacher]

Don't see how they could make Stratford a reversing point - they are building an additional platform face, not an additional track. There is no way they can join up the existing tracks with the current layout. In any case, there isn't really a need to reverse trains at Stratford - the Central has ample reversing facilities elsewhere.