WTT35

[towerman]

WTT35 starts 9th December,revised LO empty stock moves and rusty rail trips at Piccadilly Circus withdrawn.

[superteacher]

Is that the final nail for the crossover at Picc Circus. Would be a shame, because it really helps when the line is dissputed.

[metman]

I what have thought that the picc circus xover is doomed! Its not in a great location and certainly can't be used for regular reversing. Is there anywhere else in town to reverse bar Waterloo (depot). Charing X would be a good place?

[towerman]

Lambeth North,Paddington,I suppose in theory it would still be possible to reinstate a crossing at either Marylebone or Edgware Rd.

[railtechnician]

towerman said:

Lambeth North,Paddington,I suppose in theory it would still be possible to reinstate a crossing at either Marylebone or Edgware Rd.

I can't see anyone wanting to spend a fortune at Marylebone or Edgware Road. I imagine the costs to be prohibitive at installing a crossover at either and then the question would be whether or not to build a new IMR at either site or control the crossover from Baker Street (Marylebone) or Paddington (Edgware Road) existing IMR.

I think there is probably room on the frame at Paddington although I really can't remember the layout though I was present when it was commissioned about 20 years ago. Paddington IMR is a very tight space between the platforms so there probably would not be the room for the additional relays and fuse bays.

As for Baker St. I think it could be a non-starter, it is as far as I know unique in that it is the only interlocking machine I am aware of that is controlled from two geographically separated control rooms i.e. Bakerloo and Jubilee. The IMR is a Bakerloo asset and there could perhaps be merit in removing the Jubilee controls to a separate Jubilee IMR with signal slotting each way to enable stock transfers between the two lines. This would possibly free up enough levers to control a new crossover at Marylebone. It may be that the Jubilee resignalling will obviate the transfer of Jubilee controls from the Bakerloo IMR but I don't know.

Brian

[c5]

railtechnician said:

as far as I know unique in that it is the only interlocking machine I am aware of that is controlled from two geographically separated control rooms i.e. Bakerloo and Jubilee.

Bit of a drift! But I think Kings Cross "L" also falls into this category.

[Deleted]

I don't think they can afford not to. Every time there is an incident south of Paddington, the line is effectively suspended in the whole of Central London.

[railtechnician]

c5 said:

railtechnician said:

as far as I know unique in that it is the only interlocking machine I am aware of that is controlled from two geographically separated control rooms i.e. Bakerloo and Jubilee.

Bit of a drift! But I think Kings Cross "L" also falls into this category.

Most certainly not! King's Cross 'L' is a Piccadilly line IMR controlled solely from the Picc Control Room. For movements via the King's Cross loop a slot has to be requested from the Northern line control room to send trains to the Northern line and the Northern line has to request a slot from the Piccadilly line to send trains to the Picc.

Prior to the Central line resignalling the Ealing Broadway interlocking machine would I think have been controlled from two control rooms but the arrangement since has been that Ealing Broadway IMR is controlled from the District control room and the Central Line signalling is controlled via the SER from the Central control room with a similar slotting arrangement to that mentioned for King's Cross 'L' for stock transfers between lines although as I have mentioned before there was a problem with the slotting!

Brian

[North End]

superteacher said:

Is that the final nail for the crossover at Picc Circus. Would be a shame, because it really helps when the line is dissputed.

AFAIK the plan is for Piccadilly Circus crossover to be reinstated, though I've no idea what the timescale is for this.

[DWS]

railtechnician said:

c5 said:

Bit of a drift! But I think Kings Cross "L" also falls into this category.

Most certainly not! King's Cross 'L' is a Piccadilly line IMR controlled solely from the Picc Control Room. For movements via the King's Cross loop a slot has to be requested from the Northern line control room to send trains to the Northern line and the Northern line has to request a slot from the Piccadilly line to send trains to the Picc.

Prior to the Central line resignalling the Ealing Broadway interlocking machine would I think have been controlled from two control rooms but the arrangement since has been that Ealing Broadway IMR is controlled from the District control room and the Central Line signalling is controlled via the SER from the Central control room with a similar slotting arrangement to that mentioned for King's Cross 'L' for stock transfers between lines although as I have mentioned before there was a problem with the slotting!

Brian

The slot L15 is controlled from Earl's Court, Northern Line have to request the slot before they can send a train into the loop from the Northern Line end, Piccadilly Line can send a train in from Kings Cross (Picc) without permission of the Northern Line.

[tubeprune]

dws said:

The slot L15 is controlled from Earl's Court, Northern Line have to request the slot before they can send a train into the loop from the Northern Line end, Piccadilly Line can send a train in from Kings Cross (Picc) without permission of the Northern Line.

I feel a story coming on.

I was late spare at Northfields (Picc, we had District crews there then too) one evening and the YM (Yardmaster) asked if I would go to KX to pilot a GG Crew from there to Acton Works. "OK", I said, thinking that Northern Line 38s were faster then ours because they had all the motors cut in and I wondered how fast they would go between Caley Rd and KX WB!

Anyway, I got to KX and went to see the inspector, who had his office on the EB Picc then, and asked him when this train was coming. "Oh" he said, "You should be at Euston to meet him. He needs a pilot over the loop". Well, I didn't know the loop. I wondered if I should just say so and go back to Northfields. But, I thought, how difficult can it be? I had a butchers at the local line diagram on the office wall to get the idea where the signals were and off I went to Euston (City) SB platform.

When the train showed up I just said to the driver, "Follow the sticks". You have to cross from the SB to the NB City line here still moving south and then there's a very sharp right hand curve up a very steep gradient. We got stopped at the KX home. The bank is so steep here that I told the driver to open up with the brakes still on so we didn't roll back onto the Northern. I felt better once we got onto home ground. We went to Arnos to reverse and then let rip on the west. The GG driver was up for it. I can confirm the Northern's 38s were faster. We had a clear road back. It's mostly downhill. I told the driver to wind up and keep going and we braked hard into each station. I wanted to see what the train would do. We fairly rattled down through York Road with 45 showing on the speedo (The Northern 38s had speedos, some of which actually worked.) There was no 30mph restriction there then. We hit KX WB with the brakes hard on and blow downs blasting away to slow for the 5mph limit.

"Do you blokes always drive like this?" the GG man asked me. "Oh yes", I said, "We have to to keep time!" In those days, the running time from Wood Green to Acton Town was 40 minutes. Now it's 44.

[railtechnician]

tubeprune said:

dws said:

The slot L15 is controlled from Earl's Court, Northern Line have to request the slot before they can send a train into the loop from the Northern Line end, Piccadilly Line can send a train in from Kings Cross (Picc) without permission of the Northern Line.

I feel a story coming on.

I was late spare at Northfields (Picc, we had District crews there then too) one evening and the YM (Yardmaster) asked if I would go to KX to pilot a GG Crew from there to Acton Works. "OK", I said, thinking that Northern Line 38s were faster then ours because they had all the motors cut in and I wondered how fast they would go between Caley Rd and KX WB!

Anyway, I got to KX and went to see the inspector, who had his office on the EB Picc then, and asked him when this train was coming. "Oh" he said, "You should be at Euston to meet him. He needs a pilot over the loop". Well, I didn't know the loop. I wondered if I should just say so and go back to Northfields. But, I thought, how difficult can it be? I had a butchers at the local line diagram on the office wall to get the idea where the signals were and off I went to Euston (City) SB platform.

When the train showed up I just said to the driver, "Follow the sticks". You have to cross from the SB to the NB City line here still moving south and then there's a very sharp right hand curve up a very steep gradient. We got stopped at the KX home. The bank is so steep here that I told the driver to open up with the brakes still on so we didn't roll back onto the Northern. I felt better once we got onto home ground. We went to Arnos to reverse and then let rip on the west. The GG driver was up for it. I can confirm the Northern's 38s were faster. We had a clear road back. It's mostly downhill. I told the driver to wind up and keep going and we braked hard into each station. I wanted to see what the train would do. We fairly rattled down through York Road with 45 showing on the speedo (The Northern 38s had speedos, some of which actually worked.) There was no 30mph restriction there then. We hit KX WB with the brakes hard on and blow downs blasting away to slow for the 5mph limit.

"Do you blokes always drive like this?" the GG man asked me. "Oh yes", I said, "We have to to keep time!" In those days, the running time from Wood Green to Acton Town was 40 minutes. Now it's 44.

I presume you piloted the train to Arnos simply to have a go at your 'speed trial'!

I remember the old Inspector's office on the E/B at KXP. In fact the duplicate TAS panel and extension bell remains on the wall outside the door to this day (at least it did until I retired). I wired the main panel and installed it on the operating side of the IMR and we commissioned it in 1979. Once upon a time the back door from the Inspector's office led into the signal side of the IMR but in one of many updates it was blocked as the wall space was required to house equipment. King's Cross Picc IMR is one of the tightest for space although Victoria Vic IMR is similarly congested.

[Oracle]

What's the loop like in the opposite direction? I have "traversed" it but so long ago I can't remember. Also, what is the steepest gradient on the LU as a matter of interest?

[railtechnician]

oracle said:

What's the loop like in the opposite direction? I have "traversed" it but so long ago I can't remember. Also, what is the steepest gradient on the LU as a matter of interest?

I've never been round the loop on a train but I've walked it often. I never really noticed the gradient, walkers notice that more when pushing trolleys and I never pushed a trolley there. On that score the worst place I can recall pushing a trolley was from Chalk Farm to Golders Green 30 years ago though it was an interesting but hairy ride back!

[tubeprune]

railtechnician said:

I presume you piloted the train to Arnos simply to have a go at your 'speed trial'!

Of course! But I had to. It was the practice in those days (mid 60s) for the 38s going from the Northern to Acton for overhaul to be taken over the Picc by specially trained GG crews. I did the pilot job because they didn't have a trained driver available. That day they used a stepped up guard/motorman. It was also the practice to go to Wood Green or Arnos rather than reverse at KX because of the delay it could cause.

King's Cross Picc IMR is one of the tightest for space although Victoria Vic IMR is similarly congested.

When I last went there in an official capacity a couple of years ago, there was so much packed in there that the place always got overheated, in spite of the air con, and they had to leave the door open to prevent the electronics from shutting down. A guard had to be posted on the door 24/7 because it opens into a public cross passage. The bloke I spoke to said he read a lot of newspapers!

[railtechnician]

tubeprune said:

King's Cross Picc IMR is one of the tightest for space although Victoria Vic IMR is similarly congested.

When I last went there in an official capacity a couple of years ago, there was so much packed in there that the place always got overheated, in spite of the air con, and they had to leave the door open to prevent the electronics from shutting down. A guard had to be posted on the door 24/7 because it opens into a public cross passage. The bloke I spoke to said he read a lot of newspapers!

For as long as I can remember the air con at that IMR never really worked properly. I passed my IRSE signalling tester license in that room and that was a particularly hot night especially as our radios packed up and I was communicating with my colleagues by whistle.

It is perhaps one of the places I worked most often after Liverpool Street and Baker Street. The overheating became worse when additional equipment was installed and then later during the fire compartmentation programme when the natural ventilation from the platform invert was lost after the access door in the corner was sealed.

Standby duties have got to be the worst, I once stood by the relay room (in signal cabin days) at Wood Green from 2200 to 0700 7 nights a week for several weeks, I used to read books! On standby subsequent to signal failures I used to read the bookwirings of course!

[programmes1]

I seem to remember that the IMR at KX was different to all the others in that a plastic cover wasput over or was it perspex?

[railtechnician]

programmes1 said:

I seem to remember that the IMR at KX was different to all the others in that a plastic cover wasput over or was it perspex?

Cover Put over it how It's a room between a cross passage and another room (the old SS office) with a rather solid roof !

[JR 15secs]

programmes1 said:

I seem to remember that the IMR at KX was different to all the others in that a plastic cover wasput over or was it perspex?

John Tilly wrote about V frames and mentioned exactly that i.e. perspex.

[railtechnician]

relaydel said:

programmes1 said:

I seem to remember that the IMR at KX was different to all the others in that a plastic cover wasput over or was it perspex?

John Tilly wrote about V frames and mentioned exactly that i.e. perspex.

Right! Now I understand what you are talking about.

When I was maintaining KXP assets the IM/C was the only one on the Picc that actually had proper sheet steel covers at the front. The reason would presumably be that because a signalman or other operating official could access and work the frame the contacts were covered to prevent the uninitiated from tampering or getting 100 volt shocks. Having said that AFAIK policy is that a signal TO works the frame to instructions from a signal operator.

Now, all V style frames to my knowledge have perspex covers on the back as an anti-tamper device. This has been the case for as long as I can recall. However, circa 1991 LU was subject to the Electricity-at-work Act and I ran a workroom with several fitters producing perspex covers to surveys undertaken by my staff. Most of the work I directed was in Met line IMRs and relay rooms. On all lines fuse bays, changeover switches and a miscellany of uncovered equipment and power units were covered with perspex lids. KXP IMR is no exception and most of the fuse bays are so covered.

[Tom]

railtechnician said:

Now, all V style frames to my knowledge have perspex covers on the back as an anti-tamper device. This has been the case for as long as I can recall. However, circa 1991 LU was subject to the Electricity-at-work Act and I ran a workroom with several fitters producing perspex covers to surveys undertaken by my staff. Most of the work I directed was in Met line IMRs and relay rooms. On all lines fuse bays, changeover switches and a miscellany of uncovered equipment and power units were covered with perspex lids. KXP IMR is no exception and most of the fuse bays are so covered.

I can think of one or two IMRs missing the covers on the back of the frames. Likewise the fuse bay covers always seemed to get in the way IMO. Thankfully I never had to deal with many of them.

[railtechnician]

tom said:

I can think of one or two IMRs missing the covers on the back of the frames. Likewise the fuse bay covers always seemed to get in the way IMO. Thankfully I never had to deal with many of them.

Quite honestly my thinking was that only qualified individuals should be in signal equipment rooms and that there should not be a need to cover everything up. It was a PITA at some sites especially where the fuse bay covers had no quick release.

As for uncovered frames I'm sure I've come across one oe two but I can't recall where now.